Obama wants U.S. kids to speak Spanish? [Archive]

Inky29

07-16-2008, 10:12 AM

I have no problem with wanting my child to learn other languages (she 5 and she's taking a summer Spanish class) but don't give me this BS that immigrants learn how to speak English. I'm not sure what the solution is but something needs to be done about people coming over here and not learning basic English. Heck I have a problem with non immigrants not learning basic conversational English. All it ultimately does is put them (non English speaking) at a disadvantage in everything they do. The push should be for immigrants to learn English and not for us to try to learn their language. Not saying it's not worth learning but in the grand scheme of things it's shouldn't be a priority for me to change to accommodate someone moving to my country. I wouldn't move to another country and be upset that someone didn't speak English, I'd bust my hump to learn their language.

We are a country of immigrants and the one language that has risen to the top and stayed there is English, why now is there a great push for us to learn a new language to make it easier for immigrants from Mexico.

bleedorange

07-16-2008, 10:22 AM

yes, our kids actually learning some other languages in this GLOBAL freaking economy is sure going to be a bad thing for their futures. it won't help them get jobs and succeed at all.

Yeah, cause that's what's reallly holding us back. :rollseyes:

The importance of learning a foreign language may be one of the most overrated pieces of advice ever perpetrated on a young student.

Back in middle school, they made you feel like you were going to be a complete waste of human skin in life if you didn't pick Latin, Spanish or German. Complete bunk. Still is.

CaliforniaCowboy

07-16-2008, 10:32 AM

ah hem... his comments were more about him telling us once again that we're ugly americans and we should be more like the global village...

as if it would actually be possible to not speak multiple languages when you drive only an hour or so and the people there actually speak a different language.

This it the United States of America, Barack! I can go my whole life just speaking English and prosper just fine... especially since English has become the defacto International language for everything!

I do not need to speak Spanish and neither do my kids. I have no desire to go to those other countries, and if I did it would be for a two-week vacation, and I would not need to learn their language to do so. I don't want to live there.

Conversely, EVERYBODY wants to come to America, and THEY need to learn our language if they want to participate in our economy and our society.

I am not an "ugly American", Mr. Obama, and I do not need to speak any other language.

Clowns like Obama need to get off of that global community BS and start trying to preserve our National Sovereignty.

frankeaton

07-16-2008, 10:45 AM

I speak Pig Latin:D

pistolpete2002

07-16-2008, 11:05 AM

I'm all for knowing other languages, but kids at an elementary school here in Yukon had to say the Pledge of Allegiance or sing the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish. I can't remember which one but it was one of them. That, in my opinion is a bunch of BS!!!!!

pistolpete2002

07-16-2008, 11:07 AM

CaliforniaCowboy

07-16-2008, 01:00 PM

I hope you're being serious, because I 1000% agree with you!!!!!!!!

And :ousucksnana::ousucksnana::ousucksnana:

Darn right I'm serious.

I took Spanish in HS 30 years ago even before Barack created this "crisis", and my daughter just graduated HS having taken a year of Spanish and 4 years of Latin, but I don't appreciate idiots like Obama telling me that "we're" the problem... that the US is "bad".

The guy has no flipping clue what he is talking about. America is Bad. American's are bad. Follow me, I'll save you!

What a bunch of bunk that comes out of that guys' piehole.

I've been an American twice as long as he's been in this country, and I sure don't need some foreign raised jerk telling me how to be American.

Salute the flag, Barack.

Learn what this country is and what it's about and be proud, even if your racists wife isn't proud.

if you can't tell... this stuff gets my blood boiling.

OSUchris

07-16-2008, 02:53 PM

Darn right I'm serious.

I took Spanish in HS 30 years ago even before Barack created this "crisis", and my daughter just graduated HS having taken a year of Spanish and 4 years of Latin, but I don't appreciate idiots like Obama telling me that "we're" the problem... that the US is "bad".

The guy has no flipping clue what he is talking about. America is Bad. American's are bad. Follow me, I'll save you!

What a bunch of bunk that comes out of that guys' piehole.

I've been an American twice as long as he's been in this country, and I sure don't need some foreign raised jerk telling me how to be American.

Salute the flag, Barack.

Learn what this country is and what it's about and be proud, even if your racists wife isn't proud.

if you can't tell... this stuff gets my blood boiling.

I haven't seen or read anywhere that Obama thinks America is bad. There is nothing wrong with our kids learning about other cultures and other languages, it is not a bad thing for us to be a little less ethnocentric. I also think it is funny that when most of the European immigrants came to this country, none of them spoke English, nor did they learn. It was their kids who assimilated into society. My Hungarian G-Grandparents immigrated in 1912 to the US and didn't speak a word of English their entire life. They lived in a Hungarian suburb of Detroit (Delray) and were just fine. My grandparents then went to American schools and learned English in school. This is no different than what is happening with the Hispanic population (legal or otherwise) coming into this country. The first generation does not generally learn the language but they lay the foundation for their children to learn and become full members of society. I think pointing out weaknesses in our society is fine and its only by understanding your shortcomings do you know how to grow...

PokePorsche

07-16-2008, 08:57 PM

I personally think it's a weakness of our society that our children don't grow up multi-lingual and that our education system doesn't require at least bi-lingual education from elementary school throughout high school (with no gaps inbetween). Like it or not, globalization is real, the world is becoming a smaller place....and not growing up at least bilingual may cause one problems down the road in their career. Even if you don't travel, don't think you'll ever leave the country or don't work with workers from another country, chances are your kids may or will. 50 years ago if one didn't have a high school diploma, they could still do fairly well...now it's mandatory for most jobs. 25 years ago a college degree or at least partial college wasn't required in many jobs...now it's becoming more and more so even for jobs in fire protection and police work. I think it's quite possible that 10-20 years from now, not knowing at least one other language may be viewed as a "black mark" on your resume.
For the record, I'm not voting for Barack and love my country. :) But I've travelled around enough to be completely embarrassed by the fact that I grew up learing one language while the people I meet grew up learning multiple. Don't think of learning a language as un-American...think of it as one more skill (like math or science) that may someday help our children in their career or personal life. Who wouldn't be for that?

MisterE-NYC

07-16-2008, 09:41 PM

I could type some, and will when i get the time. I just started a new job today. I had to get up at 6 am, and wasnt home till 9 (long commute). Then my roommates and i talked. I am going to bed and will start process over tomorrow. Oh, and it is a commission based job... that kinda sucks, but has the possibility to pay more (but i am not hoping for overnight miracles). So, once i adjust my schedule, i will be able to keep trying to talk some sense into you right wing xenophobic people.

Oh, wait, can i use the word xenophobic? I mean it comes from greece. Xenos and Phobos. Gotta love all of these english words we use from all over the world. Anybody want some taco's? Oh wait. I guess i mean a tortilla... i mean a corn based cooked hard shell that is filled with beef (but that comes from the French word boeuf). Crap, I cant say nearly anything, because it all comes from other countries. What should we speak?
I would be overjoyed if one of you right wingers (or lefties for this matter) can come up with a list of words that were created here in the US with out foriegn influence. I think those are the only words we should speak from now on.

Of course i will address Obama's comments when i have some more time.

frankeaton

07-16-2008, 10:01 PM

yea, I wish I spoke 5 languages but when I am in WalMart/Target and NOBODY is speaking ENGLISH it just po's me

Everybody that has comes to the US learns the language, Asians, Italians etc
There was a story on nbc5 here tonight where McKinney pays 3% more for those that can speak Mexican and somebody asked WHY

NYC how do you have a long commute in NYC?

Porche how do you pronoun Porche? Porche or Porche' my uncle who drove a Porche for many years says when he met Mr. Porche, he pronounced it Porche. It is like Geo. A Hormel, if you call corp, they say Hurmel not Hormel, maybe we should consort JimBob on this. India wow what do you do there?:ousucksnana:

PokePorsche

07-16-2008, 11:12 PM

Porche how do you pronoun Porche?

India wow what do you do there?

It's Porsh-uh if you want to be correct (link (http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020401b.htm))...but I'm not one of those blue-blood, Kennedy-types who loves to walk around talking through my teeth with my nose in the air correcting people on their pronnunciation. :)

Have lived in India for 15 months working for Deloitte and Touche. Some days it's good...some days it sucks. But I'm sure that happens to you sometimes working in the U.S.

Vulgar Display of Orange

07-17-2008, 07:00 AM

CaliforniaCowboy

07-17-2008, 10:28 AM

I haven't seen or read anywhere that Obama thinks America is bad. There is nothing wrong with our kids learning about other cultures and other languages, it is not a bad thing for us to be a little less ethnocentric. I also think it is funny that when most of the European immigrants came to this country, none of them spoke English, nor did they learn. It was their kids who assimilated into society. My Hungarian G-Grandparents immigrated in 1912 to the US and didn't speak a word of English their entire life. They lived in a Hungarian suburb of Detroit (Delray) and were just fine. My grandparents then went to American schools and learned English in school. This is no different than what is happening with the Hispanic population (legal or otherwise) coming into this country. The first generation does not generally learn the language but they lay the foundation for their children to learn and become full members of society. I think pointing out weaknesses in our society is fine and its only by understanding your shortcomings do you know how to grow...

EVERYTHING that Obama says implys that he thinks that America is bad.... EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING... you're just not listening (or you believe that BS that he's spewing).

Pick up Tom Tancredo's book if you think this crap is good... he should know, he's on the Committee for immigration.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with kids learning another language, or learning about other cultures; BUT, it should not be MANDATORY. Teach them English first (lawd knows most kids graduating HS can't write worth crap... these message boards are great examples of our "finest" that don't even no the correct usage of words...

(don't start on me, I know people aren't as careful on message boards, but you can tell the difference between a rushed mistake and simply not noing basic English).

We need to emphasize American CULTURE, and stop this proclivity for "Multi-cultural" centers.

BTW, that's a cute story about your G-Grandparents FROM 1912, when most of America didn't have a 6th grade education and could hardly write English themselves, but it hardly has anything to do with today, and what's going on today.

Wisdom is understanding what you know, and knowing what you don't understand... and it has nothing to do with learning another language, or another culture.

frankeaton

07-17-2008, 11:12 AM

BTW, that's a cute story about your G-Grandparents FROM 1912, when most of America didn't have a 6th grade education and could hardly write English themselves, but it hardly has anything to do with today, and what's going on today.

my maternal grandmother was in those years and had a college degree, very rare in those days for female...her diploma is actually a sheep skin, hence the nickname these days

OSUFan

07-17-2008, 01:20 PM

Okay, I've watched the video again and granted there is not enough of it to take what Obama said in context with what else he was saying but word for word Obama said, "Instead of worrying about whether immigrants (uh) can learn English, they'll learn English. You need to make sure your child speaks Spanish."

My take on this is about the same if Obama said "gesundheit" after McCain sneezed and Fox News reported Obama is anti-God because he didn't say "God bless you" after McCain's sneeze (or that Obama is a German in disguise). This is being blown way out of proportion. In my mind what Obama was saying (and he did say immigrants would learn English) is that for us to communicate it is a two-way street. We have to speak their language if they have not learned ours. How are you going to teach them English if you can't communicate with them and speak Spanish? Besides, isn't a foreign language a requirement in school? I can remember taking several Spanish courses. Why is this an issue?

I like Fox News as I am a Republican and a conservative but they sometimes remind me of the people who pick one verse out of the Bible to try and discredit the whole thing.

CaliforniaCowboy

07-17-2008, 01:45 PM

Okay, I've watched the video again and granted there is not enough of it to take what Obama said in context with what else he was saying but word for word Obama said, "Instead of worrying about whether immigrants (uh) can learn English, they'll learn English. You need to make sure your child speaks Spanish.".

Quite the contrary, the context WAS the whole point.

That we're ugly americans to the rest of the world, and Obama can save us from that fate by taxing us more to make our kids learn Spanish.

If, as he says, the immigrants "will learn English", then that should be enough. I happen to disagree with him, and I think that is the exact thing that we should be worrying about... assimilating them into American culture... teaching them how to be Americans... not teaching our kids how to be "mulit-cultural".

MisterE-NYC

07-17-2008, 10:01 PM

Just got home at 11, so not much from me. I have a long commute because i got a job out in Valhalla (by white plains). Why? Well i couldnt find a job i really liked in the city, and the people i work with are awesome (we all went to dave and busters after work). So it is more of my type of atmosphere, and more my type of job. But i will need to work harder because it is all commission, and since i automatically lose 3 hrs a day.

I love it that people keep talking about how Obama doesn't love this country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVTBiGh00c

I think things that show hate to this country are things like sending us to war under lies and false context, like taking away our civil liberties, like spitting on the bill of rights... wait, i just mean pretty much what the current president has done. That is an actual action that is taking away and hurting the idea that is America. I do not think someone saying that there are places that can improve is hating the country, I think that shows a deeper love and understanding of America.

What exactly does Obama say that makes you say that he hates America and that America is bad? If it is him saying that we can fix the problems... well thats true. America is not perfect, and that is what makes it great. America is always striving for perfection, and changing and figuring out new things. It is finding weakness, and fixing it. You have to be honest and think to yourself, is this as great as America can be, or can we make it better.

To quote JFK, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

If you are so blind to think there are no problems, then I feel sorry for you. I think the great thing about America is nothing is ever set. When we see a problem, the constitution gives us the power to fix it. The Idea of America is alive in all of us, given power by the constitution. It is our duty to act on it, and constantly improve ourselves and our country.

Finally, what is American culture? Is in not just a blending of so many other cultures? We are the melting pot.

More to come later. maybe tomorrow night, or this weekend when i have no work.
peace

osupsycho

07-18-2008, 10:22 AM

I think things that show hate to this country are things like sending us to war under lies and false context, like taking away our civil liberties, like spitting on the bill of rights... wait, i just mean pretty much what the current president has done.

What exactly are the false pretenses that we went to war under? Last time I checked Bush said the following:

"America and our friends and allies join with all those who want peace and security in the world, and we stand together to win the war against terrorism. "

And it seems to me we are fighting terrorists in both Iraq and Afghanistan...

bleedorange

07-18-2008, 11:02 AM

I think things that show hate to this country are things like sending us to war under lies and false context, like taking away our civil liberties, like spitting on the bill of rights... wait, i just mean pretty much what the current president has done.

You donkeys DO love to rewrite history don't you. Here's the facts of why we went to war.

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/15016.htm

Saddam had the power to comply with all of that, but chose not to, and we held him accountable. Accountability is not a democratic strong suit so I can see why you'd have a problem with it.

OSUchris

07-18-2008, 11:23 AM

osupsycho

07-18-2008, 04:00 PM

I've got no problems with the reasoning for the war. Saddam should have been gone the first time we went in. I supported and still support the reasoning for the invasion. Where I have a problem is with the horrible post-invasion execution of this administration. There were no post war plans, no contingency planning, a general arrogance that the Iraqi's would love and greet us and be willing to submit to our will w/o argument. And worse yet is little to no acknowledgement that some critical mistakes were made that directly increased the loss of US lives and the forgotten Iraqi (civilian) lives. I also think because of invading when we did, the Afghanistan theatre got much worse and suffered from our lack of attention. That is the general problem with this administration. Too much hubris, too much arrogance, and too little executive accountability.

Now this I can agree with completely!!!

MisterE-NYC

07-18-2008, 07:40 PM

You donkeys DO love to rewrite history don't you. Here's the facts of why we went to war.

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/15016.htm

Saddam had the power to comply with all of that, but chose not to, and we held him accountable. Accountability is not a democratic strong suit so I can see why you'd have a problem with it.

Yup, you know, those are the UN sanctions, and i applaud you for being able to use google. The key comes at the end of the list. What the UN decides to do... One of the decisions was not to bomb the crap out of a country. Furthermore, many of the articles were referring to nuclear and chemical weapons. The UN could demand to inspect them, and the US could invade to do the same, the only problem is that there were none.

If I wend to your house Bleedorange, and demanded to see your Lamborghini, and threatened to burn your house down if you didnt show it to me. You would be up the creek without a paddle. I could threaten you all day, but you would not be able to show it to me, because you did not have one. So I would burn your house down, for something that you never even had. That would be polite, wouldn't it be?

On the subject, you right wingers never like the UN, until of course you can use it for your own advantage. There is always so much hate for it, but then you can use it as an excuse for war. And the US has historically ignored the UN on different subjects. do a little research. Should we be invaded?

Because of that, i find this funny
http://www.freewayblogger.com/images/ignoring_the_UN_to_bomb_Ira.gif

I never supported the reasoning for invading a sovereign nation, and I still do not. Ya, we may not like some of their stuff, but oh well. I think there are ways of fixing things like that instead of killing 4123 of American soldiers and thousands more innocent Iraqi's. Also if you want more about the lies that brought us to Iraq, read Scott McClellan's book. It may open your eyes. If nothing else, it will give you a different view.

And OSUChris, I Agree so much with what you said, except for the initial reasoning. But the hubris and Afghanistan parts are so true.

War on terrorism? that still makes me laugh. That is such a vague thing. I have threatened to kick someones @$$ for something as little as bothering a friend of mine that didnt want to be harassed. That, is terrorism. I used a threat to change someones ideas, actions or beliefs. I have never kicked someones @$$, but by definition of terrorism, you don't actually have to do anything. Am I a terrorist? ow some of you may scoff at that example, but thats the thing, terrorism is such a vague topic.

Here is a question, is the US using threats of violence and violence itself to change Iraqi's belief (not religious but political) system and their government terrorism? If i lived in Iraq i would sure as hell think so. Just like if Canada invaded us and wanted us to have a queen and parliament instead of a president and congress, then I would see that as an act of war and terrorism. What if the rest of the world had the exact same government and belief system of China, and the United States and Canada were the only countries with a democracy. All of the other countries ganged up on us because they felt their government system was the best,would that be bad?

Ya Saddam was a douche and the world is better off with him not in power. But even so, I do not feel that is justification for the US to invade a sovereign nation. Democracy isnt about attacking and forcing our beliefs on others, it is about letting one have a voice and a belief system, even if there are conflicts with yours. That is why you right wingers can spew crap like this embarrassment and get away from it http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=5403426&page=1 Seeing that story embarrasses me to be from Oklahoma. But I think that while i don't agree with it, he has the right to say it. That is democracy. So why cant we let other countries make their own decisions?

Finally tot the language thing. I think we as Americans should be able to fluently speak at least one other language. Not necessarily Spanish, but anything. I think people moving here should learn English if they plan to live and work here. I think we have to be able to help people of any culture assimilate into the American culture, but allowing them cultural identity. I think we have to respect that America is a melting pot, and our language is filled with things from nearly every other language. We can walk down a street and get a wonton from a Chinese restaurant, a gordita from a Mexican one, and some pizza from an Italian one (yes i use food as an example because i love food-but you can look at the etymology for nearly every English word and see its origins). It is that assimilation that grows the English language.
(technically though Obama is correct, that percent unless there is immigration reform, then there will be a larger Hispanic population then any other ethnic group. And then to survive, you would need to be able to speak Spanish. It is normally the majority that sets the curve {for me, i just go to certian neighborhoods, like Chinatown, little Italy, Crown Heights... and people speak their native tongue-i dont have a problem with that, i respect culture, and it is a great atmosphere}

okstatepike

07-18-2008, 07:52 PM

Should we be invaded?

Don't think for one second that there aren't people, countries, and terrorists out there who would do if they could. the only reason they won't is because they know we won't stand for it, and will turn their place into dusty fields w/ 6 legged mice.

I never supported the reasoning for invading a sovereign nation, and I still do not. Ya, we may not like some of their stuff, but oh well.

Is that what you would have said in 1942? We invaded Germany, but it was one of their allies that attacked us. Was that wrong? We liberated a lot of oppressed people, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan - was that wrong? How many people have to be oppressed, tortured, and killed before it becomes a morally right choice in your mind?

Why is it that the Left only wants to stand up to "evil" that supposedly comes from our country, but not other parts of the world? Are you so elitist as to say that an Americans life is worth more than anyone else's? What is wrong with defending liberty and opposing tyranny through the sacrifice of those willing to do so?

I feel sad for the world my (as yet non-existent) children stand to inherit.

MisterE-NYC

07-18-2008, 08:19 PM

Don't think for one second that there aren't people, countries, and terrorists out there who would do if they could. the only reason they won't is because they know we won't stand for it, and will turn their place into dusty fields w/ 6 legged mice.

Nuclear proliferation is a bad thing. So is nuclear annihilation. Thank goodness other countries haven't used nuclear weapons like the US did. I would be afraid of the US because we are the only country to have used them, and instead of just using them on just military, they were used on innocents. I am glad we dont lead by example in all that we do

Is that what you would have said in 1942? We invaded Germany, but it was one of their allies that attacked us. Was that wrong? We liberated a lot of oppressed people, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan - was that wrong? How many people have to be oppressed, tortured, and killed before it becomes a morally right choice in your mind?

Um, yup. So far there has been no proof of findings that Iraq was with Afghanistan, the Talliban or Al Queda. So comparing that to WWII doesnt quite work. sorry. Proof exist between Japan and Germany.
I don't think anybody should be tortured or killed. It is a savage thing to do. I just wish the United States wasnt torturing people, and killing people. And I wish we were not having our people over there getting killed and tortured for invading a sovereign nation.

Why is it that the Left only wants to stand up to "evil" that supposedly comes from our country, but not other parts of the world? Are you so elitist as to say that an Americans life is worth more than anyone else's? What is wrong with defending liberty and opposing tyranny through the sacrifice of those willing to do so?

I feel sad for the world my (as yet non-existent) children stand to inherit.

I was volunteering to help Darfur before you were probably aware of the genocide over there. I didnt see too many righties supporting it, until bush realized that some serious crap was going down there. How much have you raised to help send aid over there? Heck, how much have you raised to help the victims of the atrocities all over the world? Can you tell me the death toll of the flooding in China. How much did you help after the tidal wave in Malaysia? How much aid do you send places in Africa to dig wells and inoculate babies from simple diseases? Do you buy Fair trade stuff, or do you stick with free trade? When i can and have the option, I support Fair trade, because i do not think that because I have money that i can exploit workers.
Believe me, I really do not have very much money. My diet consist of rice, spaghetti, bread, cheap meat (when possible), a few other cheap healthy things and very little else. And yet, I still find enough money to donate to causes to help people out. I wish i could give more. The sad thing is, is that I probably give more then most of the people that will read this. So don't talk to me about the value of a life. I do as much as I can right now, and hope to do more once i can. I am not trying to berate you if you do not. I am just saying that I find a way. I am not trying to brag. I could care less about what you think. I do it because of what I would think of myself if i didnt.

I try my damnedest to help this world. In all that I do, whether it be recycling, helping raise money and awareness, volunteering, and anything else that I can do. I am trying to do my part, and am still afraid i am not doing enough. So what are you doing for these non existent children that is so high and mighty?

okstatepike

07-18-2008, 11:09 PM

I was volunteering to help Darfur before you were probably aware of the genocide over there. I didnt see too many righties supporting it

That is a very arrogant statement. Sure you qualified it with 'probably', but still. You assume you know what other people's views and knowledge are based on a few comments. People do not fit into neat little boxes of aligned ideologies, and you can not draw the conclusion that because someone supports the fight against terrorism consequently they must not have a charitable heart. We should all have more open minds and recognize that people all form their own individual views of the world and don't fit into nice little boxes.

Also for clarification, I am not advocating a "nuke them all" foreign policy, I was stating the reality of the situation. If this country faced an existential threat that is exactly what we would do - regardless of who was sitting behind the desk at ol' 1600 Penn. Ave.

My biggest disappointment in the current administration is the inconsistency of action behind the principles they espouse. If we were doing the right thing we would be much more involved in the atrocities that are currently spreading across all of Africa, and not always militarily. Unfortunately no one in power in this whole world seems to care about that continent enough to take real action, and that does sadden me greatly.

Hop off the soapbox and stop assuming that because I am a "righty" that somehow my generosity is automatically less. I personally find the basis for your line of questioning insulting seeing as you don't know me from Adam. I feel like it's crass to discuss money or gifts in a "whose is bigger" argument and I won't do it. At the end of the day I give what I do because it is the right thing to do, and I believe it is my duty. I am very fortunate to have the life I do, and I give out of thanks for those opportunities and in the hope that I can help others.

As far as what I am doing for my future children... well, I certainly don't have to answer to you, but here it is. I show my familiy everyday I love them. I make sure those bonds are strong and healthy so that my children will have a warm and supportive environment to grow up in. I try to love all of those around me, even when they make me mad, hurt me, or are not quite so charitable themselves. I got to work everyday and work my butt off so I will have the means to be able to provide my children and grandchildren with the opportunity to succeed, not to allow them to mooch off my success down the road but to succeed on their own. I do what I can to contribute to the improvement of our society in the ways I can. Charitable donations, volunteer work, and even showing up to work everyday and doing the best I can all the time are things I believe are crucial to being a good citizen - and values I want to pass on. I read my Bible, pray, and involve myself with my church so I will be able to show my kids what truly matters in this world, and how to make a difference in it. I work to right my wrongs and try as hard as I can to not make those mistakes in the first place. I admit to myself that I am not perfect and have many, many flaws. I try everyday to be the best man I can be, so I can show them what that looks like one day. I owe alot to my ancestors who came to this country from France, Sweden, and Ireland with nothing, and I want to do just as much for the generations to follow. But mostly, I try to live up to the wonderful example that my father gave me. If I can become half the man he is, I will call my life a success.

So no, it's not all that high and mighty, but thank God for that. I think that is just my job as a person.

Listen, here's the deal. We all have our roles to play in this world. Obviously you are doing the best you can to contribute to our world - as am I. My hat is off to you, you truly do care about others and that is unfortunately rare these days. But at the end of the day that is all each of us can do. My beef with you is not on the big stuff. You and I certainly want the same things for ourselves and this world, we just have very, very different ideas of how to acheive these goals. The fact that we care enough to discuss it this passionately is a positive sign for the future. My worry is this at the end of the day there is right and wrong, and how do we best protect those that are unable to protect themselves. That's a big worry, and it covers all kinds of issues. I just look at human history and I am not heartened by the choices we have made on the aggregate. I do not believe in the inherent goodness of humanity - I believe we have to struggle fiercely to be good and can never truly reach it on our own. From that point it gets into religion, and that may just be one topic too far for this thread. ;)

MisterE-NYC

07-19-2008, 12:07 AM

Maybe it was a bit arrogant since i was responding to what you said. I mean it to be a more generalized statement about most people. I definitely understand that ideologies do not fit in boxes, and that you could be the biggest pro war person and still be extremely charitable in so many different ways. I am playing more off of the stereotype of right wingers, not necessarily you in particular.

With the "nuke them all" I would just hope that the US never launches another nuclear strike. I think there would be so much irreversible damage, and it would start a chain of events that would lead down a tough road.

My biggest disappointment in the current administration is the inconsistency of action behind the principles they espouse. If we were doing the right thing we would be much more involved in the atrocities that are currently spreading across all of Africa, and not always militarily. Unfortunately no one in power in this whole world seems to care about that continent enough to take real action, and that does sadden me greatly.

I agree so much with that statement. Very well put.

I am fairly liberal, so i have to be on a soapbox. You should know that. While it may be true I do not know you from Adam, the only reason i brought up the money aspect was not to be insulting, but more to show that while a ton of people say they are concerned, the never do anything about it. (I know many lefties suffer from that problem). I was using myself as a basis, that if you honestly care about something, then instead of just talking about it, get up and do something. Every little bit counts. Some people I think feel that if they only do a little, or cant donate much time or money, then it doesn't do any good. I was using myself as an example, saying that I believe I can make a difference, even if it is not much, I will still try my hardest to affect change. So I am not trying to have a who's bigger contest (but i can definitely see how it looks that way). I using me more as an example to maybe help someone in my situation that may care but doesn't know how to go about it. It took one of my friends to tell me, and help me get back on the boat (I was pretty self absorbed, and instead of listening to my heart, i was listening to my pocketbook)

No, you definitely did not have to answer to me, but I am glad you did. What you typed is very inspirational, and a good goal for all of us to follow. I extend my virtual hand out to shake yours, and say thank you. You have it down, you have a vision that so many of us lose sight of.

We do have our roles. And living our life and trying to do the best that we can is all we can hope for. Sometimes I think it works out for the best for people to have extremely different ideas on how to solve problems, because like you said, it opens up an important dialog between people. through that, we can see the flaws in our own ideas, and offer up alternatives the other person may not have thought of. It prevents us from being static. It leads us down a path to find mutual understanding and mutual benefit. If people with different ideas would just be willing to talk it out, and learn to make diplomatic decisions with some things, and agree to disagree on the others, I too feel optimistic about the future. To me, especially now days, it seems everyone is to closed to consider alternatives. While I may seem like a crazy lefty to all of you that read what I type, Sometimes you say things that make me re-evaluate my ideas. You make me think thinks i did not even consider. You help me expand my mind. For this, I most definitely thank all of you crazy right wingers.

I think the one thing that starts us both down the different paths to the same goal is one little thing.
I do not believe in the inherent goodness of humanity - I believe we have to struggle fiercely to be good and can never truly reach it on our own.
While I believe the opposite. I think that tells us from the start why it is so different.

But I do agree, we could get into religion, but religion is a far cry form the topic of teaching children spanish. haha:food-smiley-004:

CaliforniaCowboy

07-19-2008, 08:09 AM

sheesh... NYC's whole diatribe is laughable, at best; and his analogy of the Lamborgini was ridiculous.

What if you burned down only his front lawn and then entered his garage and did find all the parts to build the Lamborgini within one month, the very lamborgini that he plans to run you over with? That's much closer to what acutally happened. Your comments imply that WMD has only one definition and that is nuclear... when clearly that is not the case (with Iraq).

Besides, missles WERE found (500 of them) with WMD warheads intact (the one's he supposedly "destroyed". I suppose the indisputable evidence that he moved most of the incriminating materials out of the country before the war plays no part in your opinion... evidence like the materials found as far away as Norway with the UN inspection seals still intact.

Regardless.. we did not attack Iraq for WMD, as the lefties insist, it was one MINOR point in the littany of issues as the article pointed out.

The United Nations is a complete joke, and many of the continued problems in Africa are the direct result of inaction by the UN... namely France, and the restrictions that they insist on including in every UN resolution for "peace-keeping" forces to be deployed to those affected areas.

The UN has become a platform for "lesser" countries to pound their whack-o positions on the United States of America. (read John Bolton's book).

I am not a war monger, but neither am I a coward like Obama. The threat of force is a tool, just like all the other tools that are used in diplomacy. Surrender is not an option, in the UN or anywhere else in the world.

I can't believe some of the positions that I read in this thread... those like; I gave money so I'm a better person and I know more about what is wrong and what it takes to fix it.... (that appeared to be the implication).

I find it very curious that the lefties claim that we ignored the UN (even though they were directly opposed to our sovereign rights as a nation... which is the only function of the UN at the moment) when we "invaded" Iraq (evidently by ourselves with no other "UN" nations... like England, Canada, Spain, etc., etc.... but the US is bad, I suppose because we MADE those other countries join us in the "invasion").

I also find it curious that when Clinton invaded Bosnia (under the UN guise), it was against the will of almost all Americans who stated that we should not be getting involved in a civil war, but the "left" defended the action as a "humanitarian effort". Bosnia was no threat to the US.. none..... but now, we need to get out of Iraq because it's a "civil war", and although we desparately need to do the humanitarian thing and ensure that they have a viable government before we leave, there is no mention of any humanitarian effort from the "left" to replace what we ourselves destroyed and put upon them.

I would watch a Michael Moore movie before I read Scott McClellan's "book"... which everybody that was actually there has discredited for his liberal use of supposition and lack of actual knowledge on issues... "I saw them go into a room together, so they must have been talking about something bad"....

For the record, I would never watch a spin-doctored Michael Moore movie.

frankeaton

07-19-2008, 07:14 PM

US could invade to do the same, the only problem is that there were none.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

Nuclear proliferation is a bad thing. So is nuclear annihilation. Thank goodness other countries haven't used nuclear weapons like the US did. I would be afraid of the US because we are the only country to have used them

are you nuts?????????? you would rather have seen thousands of US troops lost in trying to invade Japan???????? and they were warned, not once but twice, btw my dad helped design that plane

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/bchapel/Coach%20Gundy/obama.jpg

MisterE-NYC

07-19-2008, 08:59 PM

Quoting fox are we now? Their spin on it is definitely good. But according to other reports, the weapons found were in a dump, very poor conditions, not usable and inactive, and had no short range or long range capabilities. And they were not being stored to be used. They were leftovers, kind of like the US has left over weapons. At one point we were getting rid of them, but we stopped, so the US still has tons of WMD's too. Hopefully someone doesnt attack us because of that.

Depending on how you look at the bombing of Japan, I may be nuts. I think it is completely and morally wrong to bomb innocent civilians. And yes they were warned, but they had no idea the destructive capabilities of a weapon of that sort. So there goes Hiroshima. Then we dropped leaflets on the 8th warning of another attack, but we failed to drop warnings over Nagasaki. Though we did do that after we had already dropped the bomb on them. But even the fact, many historians argue that the second weapon did not need to be used, because the Japaneese were already working on a surrender, and we did not allow sufficient time to have the word get to the US. The order to drop on Nagasaki did not come directly from the president, but came from a commander of the fleet.
"Truman gave an order not bomb Nagasaki. A memo published in The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, May/June 1998, states that Truman "had given orders to stop atomic bombing. He said the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible. He didn't like the idea of killing, as he said, 'all those kids.'""http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3666/i21/i21a10.html

And also, according to Eisenhower, the bombing was not for the sake of Japan, but to warn off the Soviet Union. You can read that on the last page i listed, or many numerous ones. I remember those two things from my history classes.

But I do have to say that the B-29 is a beautiful plane. That is a very cool piece of history and family tradition.

http://lighthousepatriotjournal.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/new-mccain-10x10-1.jpg?w=244&h=243

CaliforniaCowboy

07-19-2008, 09:14 PM

hmmm... I'm 100% certain that "The bomb" was dropped to SAVE American lives that would be lost in a ground assalt on Japan (much like Iwo Gima; however you spell it).

Russia wasn't even a threat to the US at that time... they were an ally, despite what your leftist history professor might have told you in revisionist history class.

If we were trying to scare Russia, then it didn't work, since they kept half of Europe as their spoils of war, just like England, the US and France kept much of the rest of the world as ours (Middle East, Africa, Pacific Islands, etc.)

MisterE-NYC

07-19-2008, 10:19 PM

Well, Its a good thing that you are 100% certain about things you were not there for. I guess since i am liberal, my teachers must have been too. Or maybe they are just using history to teach. Because if you read history, and read about the US and the Soviets at the end of WWII, you will see that we were not even officially allies, neither country trusted the other. Russia was a declared ally with Britain and France, only after Hitler invaded them (they originally had a no contact agreement). The US became official allies with France and Britain. They joined to defeat the Nazi threat out of necessity. Read up on it, and you may be surprised how shielded you have been.

Read this http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers205.html Oh, and its not leftist propaganda. It is on a site hosted by a libertarian. And you can read it and look at the sources like Truman's biography on PBS. So read that, and then tell me once again with 100% certainty.

frankeaton

07-20-2008, 12:02 AM

Then we dropped leaflets on the 8th warning of another attack, but we failed to drop warnings over Nagasaki. Though we did do that after we had already dropped the bomb on them. But even the fact, many historians argue that the second weapon did not need to be used, because the Japaneese were already working on a surrender,

I am a history nut, should have majored in it but knew the pay was better in biz school and I have NEVER NEVER NEVER (Winston Churchill) heard what you are saying. The Japenese do a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor and we are suppose to believe we can trust anything they say?????? So we lost >4000 in Iraq over 5 years and it is ok to lose > 100,000 by not using the A bomb????

Funny thing about my dad, my mother never knew why they were tranfered from Wichita to Denver until she watched a PBS show about Truman, until last month,I knew it but my dad never, never, never, told her, top secret stuff:ousucksnana:

MisterE-NYC

07-20-2008, 09:27 AM

Well history nut or not, you cant change what Eisenhower or Truman write in their memoirs. That at least gives reasonable doubt into the actual dealings.

And While i do think Pearl Harbor was mast definitely heinous, I do see a difference between bombing civilians as compared to bombing the military. That can also bring up the conspiracy theories that the government knew about Pearl Harbor before it even happened. While I do not know for sure, I think there is enough proof to at least make you question whether they did or not.

We have actually lost 4125 soldiers as of today. I do not like the idea of losing any of them. The thought of loosing 100,000 is scary, but we do not know if that would have actually happened, if what Truman writes was really true. So we take the lives of 0ver 200,000 civilians. And Japan attacked the United States, attacked what we live for. Iraq did no such thing, we attacked them. We were the aggressors.

Using that logic (i definitely do not condone, but am speaking as a devils advocate) you can equate the US being like Japan bombing Pearl Harbor. So are you saying that Iraq in order to save hundreds of thousands of their peoples lives should attack the US. We have according to the World Heath Organization killed around 151,000. that is on the high side. according to the Iraq Body Count Project, the number is about 90,000. More being killed every day. I just hope that they do not decided to attack the US in retaliation.

I cant believe you dad never told your mom. That is a long time to keep a secret... even if it was top secret. And you, having to keep it a secret. Did you know that your mom didnt know?

CaliforniaCowboy

07-20-2008, 11:24 AM

Memoirs - isn't that like... "how I want to be remembered?"

Regean's memoirs must be a hoot, since he couldn't remember anything, according to his testimony.

The primary reason to drop the bomb on Japan was to save American lives... According to Truman, among others are to justify the expense of building it, demonstration to Russia, and some others also of minor consequence... the primary reason was to save American lives.

We had already tried blocades, and carpet bombing with incindary bombs (which BTW killed 100,000 people (more than the "bombs"), none of our efforts had any affect on them surrendering, and we wanted to avoid bloody house-to-house combat.

We had already told Russia about the bomb at the Potsdam Conference months earlier, and we had already detonated it in the US. Russia knew full well what we had. We already told them.

The thought that we would kill thousands and thousands of people simply to impress the Russians is pure insanity... revisionist thinking.

We dropped the bomb with the primary purpose to end the war ... period.

You can drop any secondary benefits that you'd like onto the heap, but they were only minor factors, if factors at all.