Barack Hussein Obama ... What is his real agenda?

[legelegel]

He could be President of the United States and I have some real concerns about what has formed him, what he believes now and his agenda for America.

What concerns me first is his early muslin education, his communist and socialist mentors and his rejection of the Christian Church until it was politically expedient to join.

Here are two interlinking web sites that may help.

http://www.theobamafile.com/

http://www.freedomsenemies.com/_Obama/ObamaPolitics.htm

They are not pro Obama, but are:

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4840/nobamajpg10wf1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

There is a lot of compelling information here.

What part of it should we not believe?

For now, this information gives me grave concern for the direction our country made take if he becomes our President.

[WyomingOSUAlum]

First, I've gotta say that I am very proud of my country. A mere 50 years ago, it would have been impossible for a man who happens to be black to be one step away from winning a presidential election. We've come a long way, baby. The NAACP, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have got to be doing some serious wondering about their level of job security right now!

Secondly, there's no way in hell I'm voting for the guy. J.C. Watts? Hell yes, the guy gets my vote. Barack Obama? Hell no. Waaaay too liberal.

[legelegel]

J.C. Watts for US Senate? Yes.
For President? I'm not sure who I would really like to see as President right now.

I don't think we have seen a really good man run in a long time. Maybe we expect too much from one person.

[FalseGod]

I hope in 50 years or less someone's religion will matter as much as the color of skin for president. What Obama's religion is has nothing to do with this election. If he is Muslim, more power to him.

[wickerbill]

What's crazy is he's not muslim. He's a Christian. It would be nice if campaigns could actually be decided on the issues instead of mudslinging and internet BS. If you don't want Obama based on how he stands on the issues, that's fine, but don't go around posting BS that's not true and has nothing to do with what he would do as president.

[wickerbill]

Actually, I just figured it out. Obama is going to assassinate the president after he's elected. He will be a muslim suicide bomber and kill himself.

[OSUchris]

He could be President of the United States and I have some real concerns about what has formed him, what he believes now and his agenda for America.

What concerns me first is his early muslin education, his communist and socialist mentors and his rejection of the Christian Church until it was politically expedient to join.

...snipping out useless drivel...

For now, this information gives me grave concern for the direction our country made take if he becomes our President.


No what should be of real concern to this country is when people choose to believe everything that is written about a person on some losers website. Barrack Hussein Napoleon Pol-Pot Stalin Obama's real agenda is to try to start changing this ethno-centric, quasi-racist thinking that keeps this country from real change.

OBAMA '08

[frankeaton]

I hope in 50 years or less someone's religion will matter as much as the color of skin for president. What Obama's religion is has nothing to do with this election. If he is Muslim, more power to him.


well let's see, I believe they hate our guts and want everybody who is not a muslim to die?:stupid:

[frankeaton]

He could be President of the United States and I have some real concerns about what has formed him, what he believes now and his agenda for America.

What concerns me first is his early muslin education, his communist and socialist mentors and his rejection of the Christian Church until it was politically expedient to join.

Here are two interlinking web sites that may help.

http://www.theobamafile.com/

http://www.freedomsenemies.com/_Obama/ObamaPolitics.htm

They are not pro Obama, but are:

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/4840/nobamajpg10wf1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/)

There is a lot of compelling information here.

What part of it should we not believe?

For now, this information gives me grave concern for the direction our country made take if he becomes our President.

from those web sites, I would say this is downright scary, how can the left coast press not look in to this??? they just ignore it. Boone was on Fox news last week and said something was coming, maybe he will expose it like he did with the swift boat thing?:furious3:

[OSUchris]

well let's see, I believe they hate our guts and want everybody who is not a muslim to die?:stupid:

Who's "they"???

[frankeaton]

Who's "they"???


who are you, acefin's brother? they=Muslims

[Verb]

well let's see, I believe they hate our guts and want everybody who is not a muslim to die?:stupid:

There are millions of peace-loving, righteous, decent Muslims all over the world. All Muslims are terrorists in the same way that all Christians handle snakes and blow up abortion clinics. Please, don't buy into gross racist generalizations about one of the world's great religions.

[legelegel]

Read this editorial published on February 14, 2008. It has been classified as either "true" or "false" by Snopes which tries to evaluate some of his statements.

Ken Blackwell is the Senior Fellow for Family Empowerment for the Family Research Council in Washington D.C. He is a columnist for the New York Sun and a contributing editor for Townhall.com. A former Ohio Secretary of State who was the first African-American to be a candidate for governor of a major party in Ohio. He is a Republican.

Beyond Obama's Beauty

Ken Blackwell - New York Sun


It's an amazing time to be alive in America. We're in a year of firsts in this presidential election: the first viable woman candidate; the first viable African-American candidate; and, a candidate who is the first front running freedom fighter over 70. The next president of America will be a first.


We won't truly be in an election of firsts, however, until we judge every candidate by where they stand. We won't arrive where we should be until we no longer talk about skin color or gender.

Now that Barack Obama steps to the front of the Democratic field, we need to stop talking about his race, and start talking about his policies and his politics.

The reality is this: Though the Democrats will not have a nominee until August, unless Hillary Clinton drops out, Mr. Obama is now the front runner, and its time America takes a closer and deeper look at him.

Some pundits are calling him the next John F. Kennedy. He's not. He's the next George McGovern. And it's time people learned the facts.
Because the truth is that Mr. Obama is the single most liberal senator in the entire U.S. Senate. He is more liberal than Ted Kennedy, Bernie Sanders, or Mrs. Clinton.

Never in my life have I seen a presidential front runner whose rhetoric is so far removed from his record. Walter Mondale promised to raise our taxes, and he lost. George McGovern promised military weakness, and he lost. Michael Dukakis promised a liberal domestic agenda, and he lost.
Yet Mr. Obama is promising all those things, and he's not behind in the polls. Why? Because the press has dealt with him as if he were in a beauty pageant.
Mr. Obama talks about getting past party, getting past red and blue, to lead the United States of America. But let's look at the more defined strokes of who he is underneath this superficial 'beauty.'

Start with national security, since the president's most important duties are as commander-in-chief. Over the summer, Mr. Obama talked about invading Pakistan, a nation armed with nuclear weapons; meeting without preconditions with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who vows to destroy Israel and create another Holocaust; and Kim Jong II, who is murdering and starving his people, but emphasized that the nuclear option was off the table against terrorists - something no president has ever taken off the table since we created nuclear weapons in the 1940s. Even Democrats who have worked in national security condemned all of those remarks. Mr. Obama is a foreign-policy novice who would put our national security at risk.

Next, consider economic policy. For all its faults, our health care system is the strongest in the world. And free trade agreements, created by Bill Clinton as well as President Bush, have made more goods more affordable so that even people of modest means can live a life that no one imagined a generation ago. Yet Mr. Obama promises to raise taxes on 'the rich.' How to fix Social Security? Raise taxes. How to fix Medicare? Raise taxes. Prescription drugs? Raise taxes. Free college? Raise taxes. Socialize medicine? Raise taxes. His solution to everything is to have government take it over. Big Brother on steroids, funded by your paycheck.

Finally, look at the social issues. Mr. Obama had the audacity to open a stadium rally by saying, 'All praise and glory to God!' but says that Christian leaders speaking for life and marriage have 'hijacked' - hijacked - Christianity. He is pro-partial birth abortion, and promises to appoint Supreme Court justices who will rule any restriction on it unconstitutional. He espouses the abortion views of Margaret Sanger, one of the early advocates of racial cleansing. His spiritual leaders endorse homosexual marriage, and he is moving in that direction. In Illinois, he refused to vote against a statewide ban - ban - on all handguns in the state. These are radical left, Hollywood, and San Francisco values, not Middle America values.

The real Mr. Obama is an easy target for the general election. Mrs. Clinton is a far tougher opponent. But Mr. Obama could win if people don't start looking behind his veneer and flowery speeches. His vision of 'bringing America together' means saying that those who disagree with his agenda for America are hijackers or warmongers. Uniting the country means adopting his liberal agenda and abandoning any conflicting beliefs.

But right now everyone is talking about how eloquent of a speaker he is and - yes - they're talking about his race. Those should never be the factors on which we base our choice for president. Mr. Obama's radical agenda sets him far outside the American mainstream, to the left of Mrs. Clinton.

It's time to talk about the real Barack Obama. In an election of firsts, let's first make sure we elect the person who is qualified to be our president in a nuclear age during a global civilizational war.


http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/blackwell.asp

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/blackwell.htm (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/blackwell.htm)

[CaliforniaCowboy]

I just don't like the fact that he's ignorant (57 States?, invade our allys?, etc., etc.)

and ... he's not "Christian"; he belongs to a "black-first" church that from all accounts, does not profess Christian values.... and one that did not require that he denounce the muslim faith to becoome a member.

just because you call youself a Christian, does not make you a Christian.


I don't normally think that religion has a lot to do with politics, but in this day and age, it happens to be like running for president as a Nazi in the 1940's.

they desparately need to rewrite the book of Koran before that religion could ever be considered to be "great".... it's certainly far, far from Chrisitian teachings in many, many areas... like kill "everybody" and enslave the people nonsense.

[Inky29]

I guess the question I have about him is to all the people that talk about how he's going to bring change to the White House, just what exactly does that mean and what proof is there in is past performance that makes anyone think that he's capable of bringing change. He's an excellent speaker, no doubt about that, but he can talk all he wants but if there's no substance behind what he's saying than what good is it?

[MisterE-NYC]

First, the 57 state thing was a misspeak. He had visited 47 states, and had 3 left to go to. That is nowhere near as bad as the misspeaks McCain has about Iran, Iraq, and Al Queda. Tying 2 groups together especially in foreign policy is a bad thing to do (wars can get started that way). But in all of the candidates defenses, speaking everyday in front of thousands of people and having everything being taped and heard, sometimes slip ups do occur. It happens with all of the candidates. Here is an interesting fact... Sometimes i mispeak. Sometimes i say wrong information, or get confused. I guess that makes me human.

I agree, just calling yourself does not make you a Christian. I know so many "Christians" that do many of the things the bible teaches against. sex outside of marriage, drinking heavily, getting their haircut (for all of you old testament people), tattoos, breaking the law of the land, stealing, lying, cheating, not going to church on the sabbath, not respecting your parents, use the lords name in vain... Yup, there are so many people that claim to be Christian, and definitely do not live it. I know i am not innocent, but i am not trying to cast the first stone either. Its a sad day for Christians, and well all of humanity when people judge someone for not being "Christian" enough. Judge not lest ye be judged.

I like what Mike Huckabee said, "I think it's just better if a person is honest about who they are. I'd much rather have a person who is an atheist be honest and say 'I'm an atheist,' and get elected than a person who says 'I'm a Christian,' but doesn't live like it."

Change can be many things. For me it is:
Reforming the bankruptcy laws
Make healthcare affordable to me
Increase after school programs for children (that could also be hope)
Give benefits to companies that do not ship jobs over seas
Credit card bill of rights
Clean Washington of the lobbyist (he has already started that)
Bring our troops home
Humanitarian aid
Make college affordable and available
Invest in early childhood education
Fix no child left behind
Help fight against and protect people from foreclosures
Make sure minimum wage is a living wage
Rehabilitate criminals, provide training
Promote responsible fatherhood to strengthen families
Be honest with Americans about White House actions
Rework NAFTA to help Americans
Protect Social Security
I really appreciate that Obama is willing to talk to other world leaders. It is being a diplomat, and I feel it is extremely important. When one country turns it back on another, that is when trouble starts. Its not negotiating, it is just talking, and maybe learning their point of view, and maybe trying to solve a problem. Like Cuba. We just ignore them while their people starve and are mistreated. If the president just talked to them, maybe there could be some way to help solve their problem. But we just turn a blind eye. I think that is the wrong way to go.
If we look at it from another standpoint, if you are a member of any religious faith then should you talk to anyone of another faith. Yes, of course you should. Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all of the others constantly work together in everyday life. But historically, they have all be at war with each other. But despite that, we can all work side by side. (of course there are still some sects of all religions that do not interact with any others, or feel that others are evil-but that’s a small number in comparison) I have Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist friends. I can talk to any of them, even though some of their core beliefs may be different then mine.

There are many more reasons why I feel Obama is a candidate for change, but I figured these few may show you a little why I feel as I do. I agree that those terms are used too much, but I think they are all inclusive of his message and ideas.

And those websites are full of wrong information, mis-information, not full information, false information, and yes, some true stuff too. You have to take information very cautiously. Anyone can post info on the web, and distort it to their views. So, check many sources. dont just google nobama or something. A smart person looks and many things, makes an objective decision based on research. You have to read anti obama stuff and pro obama stuff. then come to conclusions. I do that for every candidate in the elections. I look at my ideals and values, and find the candidate i most align with, and that i feel will make the biggest difference.

There are some things that i disagree with Obama on. But politics is also about compromise. I personally feel that Obama will do good things for this country, and rebuild its standing in the world community. Some things may even hurt me (like more taxes) but i see it as for the greater good. I am willing to sacrifice some money to help people. (and the bible talks against the love of money, and also says give to Ceaser what is Ceasers. Money cannot - well should not control you, but as Chrisitans, I'm sure you knew that.)

So, no matter what you people do, make educated and informed decisions. Do not follow anyone blindly. If someone wants to debate policy, i would be happy to. But as for the attacks on Obama for pithy things, i'm through. I hate the jingoistic and xenophobic attitudes of people.

As for me, I like Obama. Even if he was a Muslim (which he's not) i wouldn't care. I like his ideas, and like what he wants to do.

Obama 08

[OSUchris]

I just don't like the fact that he's ignorant (57 States?, invade our allys?, etc., etc.)

....

FYI... He was referring to the 57 primary/caucus contests...

1-49: The 49 states besides Texas
50: Texas primary
51: Texas caucus
52: Washington, DC
53: American Samoa
54: U.S. Virgin Islands
55: Democrats Abroad
56: Guam
57: Puerto Rico

Man he sure is ignorant....

OBAMA '08

[Pokes4Life]

I'm not voting for the guy, but this has got to be one of the most ignorant and misinformed threads I've ever read.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

FYI... He was referring to the 57 primary/caucus contests...




For the record... (I heard it), he said he VISITED those STATES and had one or two to go.

Mis-speak or not, that is a totally unacceptable gaff; but understandable from someone that does not have an upbringing of US governement and governance.

The guy simply has not clue what-so-ever... on anything.

He sounds just like John Kerry when he lost (change this, change that); and his policies are left of McGovern when he lost in a landslide.

I'm for lots of things, but not one thing that Nobama represents. Not one.

He's a liar (but that didn't stop Willy Clinton), he has seedy ties with anybody that will help him get promoted, he (and his wife) are racists (not my opinion, but based on his actions and hers)... and he is ignorant to even consider that you can discuss anything with the tyrants in the Middle East from a position of weakness... it can't be done.

At least Nancy Pelosi got it started by undermining the US government with her negotiations with Syria, in which Isreal flat out called her a liar and that they had not even spoken with her about Syria.

I do not judge folks on "Christian" values... I coldn't care less if a candidate were Jewish, Christian (or protestant, ha), Buddhist, Hindu, etc.. but, 1) those religions do not profess killing and subjection in their "bible", and 2) he was the one claiming to be Christian, which was why I drew the parallel between Islam and Christianity - the two religions that he has association with.

[MisterE-NYC]

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5
(thats from the Christian bible)

And OSUchris I thought about the 57 primaries too. There is conflicting data, so i just went with one. But good job.

And misinformed
McCain while in Jordan... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG8BdV1ymMY
That isn't even the only time he has said that. That is truly an unacceptable gaff, and a scary one. Thank goodness Liberman was there to correct him.

And we woundn't be talking from a point of weakness. I think there are no problems with sitting down with someone and talking to them. Its called diplomacy. Regan did it to help end the cold war. Most presidents and other people have no problem with diplomacy. I mean, i have eaten dinner with gooners.

And its sad that you do not agree with anything that Obama represents. I mean, making heath care affordable sounds great to me. I love the idea of better schools. I think no child left behind should be fixed, to help make sure that children aren't left behind. ANd i mean even simpler, make sure spent nuclear fuel is tracked and stored properly. I would love to make sure that our troops get a college education.
I feel that you were saying anything as more of a generalization of key points and ideas, but not of every one. I mean, Obama and McCain even agree on some things.

And Pokes4life how is this one of the most ignorant and misinformed threads? I'm just wondering.

[Verb]

I just don't like the fact that he's ignorant (57 States?, invade our allys?, etc., etc.)

and ... he's not "Christian"; he belongs to a "black-first" church that from all accounts, does not profess Christian values.... and one that did not require that he denounce the muslim faith to becoome a member.

just because you call youself a Christian, does not make you a Christian.


I don't normally think that religion has a lot to do with politics, but in this day and age, it happens to be like running for president as a Nazi in the 1940's.

they desparately need to rewrite the book of Koran before that religion could ever be considered to be "great".... it's certainly far, far from Chrisitian teachings in many, many areas... like kill "everybody" and enslave the people nonsense.

CC, the word "great" was not used a value judgment or an adjective. Historians typically classify the great religions by the number of adherents and the historical impact. Typically, a list of the great religions of the world includes Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and sometimes Confucionism, Shinto and Zoroastrianism and others.

Of those, Christianity and Islam are both newcomers, historically speaking. Islam is second in numbers only to Christianity, and is definitely one of the major religions of the world. To classify all of its over a billion adherents as terrorists is just plain ignorant.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

I'm not quite sure how you can call this stuff "change"... besides those are the things that all Americans want, but HOW they implement the "change" that makes all the difference in the world, and Nobama hasn't a clue how to do it without implementing socialism and ending capitalism... totally anit-American.

All of these are the reasons that I would NOT vote for Nobama.



Change can be many things. For me it is:
Reforming the bankruptcy laws (they already made it harder; what more do you want?)

Make healthcare affordable to me (just don't ME pay for your affordable healthcare, I'm already paying for my healthcare, and for that of the Poor... there is no bill of rights for affordable health care, so don't tax me for it (as Obama wants to do), but find a REAL solution ... like getting the government out of it completely. Elective surgery is competitive and affordable, but government mandated care is out of control. McCain is in favor of affordable health care, but not taxing to get there, but by using capitalism, as it should be done.)

Increase after school programs for children (that could also be hope) (this is not new; and IMO, is simply another entitlement that we do not need and cannot afford)

Give benefits to companies that do not ship jobs over seas (I haven't heard him say that; don't think he would do it either, but there's no reason that McCain couldn't do that too... I'm not really sure that it's even a good idea, and would likely lead to stagnation and inflation.. we just need to get the illegal workers out and there would be plenty of jobs)

Credit card bill of rights (what ever the heck that is.... there is no "right" to credit; it is EARNED by trust and competence. That is about the dumbest comment I've seen in a while... that's my opinion).

Clean Washington of the lobbyist (he has already started that) (Nobama is one of the worst at offering freebies to those that support him... his wife's hospital, etc., etc., he has not done that and will not do that, although I agree in principal... the largest "lobby" in California (the Teachers and Firefighters unions defeated some very needed changes that Arnold was trying to get through... I suppose you're talking anit-union, but I'm not sure; certainly you can't exclude unions from Lobby-talk)

Bring our troops home (as everybody wants, including McCain; we just don't want Nobama's duck and run approach... and he won't bring them home any more quickly anyway... another of the great lies. Regardless, that is not "change", the approach is what is in question, and Nobama doesn't have one that works).

Humanitarian aid ("Change?", you mean like the award given to 43 for all the mosquito nets that have saved millions of lives in Africa? You mean like that? Just exactly what "change" are you talking about, walfare for foreigners?)

Make college affordable and available (or, how about people actually work for it, like I had to do... it's much more afforable and available than it was in the 70's... or do you mean FREE education for illegals, which is where this nonsense is headed if we don't get it stopped... we've been fighting that illegal-benefit in Ca for a while now).

Invest in early childhood education (there is absolutely no proof that it has any benefit what so ever. We've never had it; why is it important now? Many studies have shown that there is no real benefit to preschool, especially not FREE preschool that I pay for somebody else's kid to get baby sat).

Fix no child left behind (Fix it... heck, get rid of it. It's a bad idea, implemented poorly. How about: "No school admistrator moving ahead of me". Take the fat from the top and give it to the kids and the system will fix itself. Get rid of the stupid Department of Education too... what a waste)

Help fight against and protect people from foreclosures (HUH? How about education. If they can't afford it, move to an apartment... that is how capitalism works. The governement isn't supposed to be buying people homes. This is socialism at it's worst, and it doesn't work; ask anybody in Russia or China waiting for governement housing).

Make sure minimum wage is a living wage (there is no need for a minimum wage. None. Get rid of the illegals and wages will adjust themselves to attract workers. Since when has anyone been "entitled" to a certain wage. If you want more, improve yourself. Get an education. Learn a skill. It's all about taking advantage of the opportunities that America provides.. and get off your lazy butts. Now the Gov't is going to tell business people how they have to run their business, when almost none of our representatives/senators have ever run a business or are capable of running a business... please.)

Rehabilitate criminals, provide training (like that hasn't always been the goal? Punishment prevents crime... three-strikes seems to be working. I'm all for rehabilitation, but that is NOT "change", and Nobama has no solution either).

Promote responsible fatherhood to strengthen families (didn't you mean to end your sentence with ... in the black community? There are many black leaders doing just that right now, but most, like Nobama and his minister just want to continue playing the victicrates because it gets them more milage).

Be honest with Americans about White House actions (like that lying Willy Clinton, or that shifty lying Nobama? How is that change? I'd like to see one lie that 43 has told and been caught in... I don't think you'll find one).

Rework NAFTA to help Americans (get rid of NAFTA... completely. Didn't a democrat put that in?)

Protect Social Security (protect it? Get rid of it. 43 had the ONLY plan that would work and the Dems knew they couldn't get elected and increase their spending if they didn't have the SS money to spend wildly. I would like to see the Congress also be on SS instead of their separate plan; you would see some action then. 43 tried to fix it, but the clowns like Nobabma won't let him.)



Please, please, please, we can't survive as a country with somebody as whacked out and confused as "Lightening" running this country.

isn't that what Barack translates to?

[MisterE-NYC]

About the Credit Card Bill of Rights

Address Predatory Credit Card Practices

Obama will establish a five-star rating system so that every consumer knows the risk involved in every credit card. He also will establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to stop credit card companies from exploiting consumers with unfair practices.

* Create a Credit Card Rating System to Improve Disclosure: Obama will create a credit card rating system, modeled on five-star systems used for other consumer products, to provide consumers an easily identifiable ranking of credit cards, based on the card's features. Credit card companies will be required to display the rating on all application and contract materials, enabling consumers to quickly understand all of the major provisions of a credit card without having to rely exclusively on fine print in lengthy documents.
* Establish a Credit Card Bill of Rights to Protect Consumers: Obama will create a Credit Card Bill of Rights to protect consumers. The Obama plan will:
o Ban Unilateral Changes
o Apply Interest Rate Increases Only to Future Debt
o Prohibit Interest on Fees
o Prohibit "Universal Defaults"
o Require Prompt and Fair Crediting of Cardholder Payments

And you can check out what congress is working on right now about it
http://maloney.house.gov/documents/financial/h.r.5244billtext.pdf

I definitely can understand some of your points. I agree alot about the Illegals situations and the hardships they cause. I think that problem needs to be addressed.

For healthcare, i am poor. I am not on government assistance or anything like that. But I would love for heath insurance cost to be lower so i could afford it. I do not think there should be a mandate, but i think that the cost of heathcare and heath insurance is absurd. Bart of the reason for that is definitely government and acts they have enacted. I think cleaning up that would help lower costs.

Bush Lies.... He has been caught. Google bush lies, and you will see many instances.

And check out the Patriot Employer Act of 2007. Its about benefits to employers that stay in the US. There is a lot more information about keeping jobs from going overseas and how to help businesses.

I am a very pro-union guy. I love them. So does Obama. He wants to protect employees rites to unionize, and protect the worker. Yes, anyone can lobby. When i was going to OSU, i lobbied at the state capitol to help education and the board of regents get the money they needed. The lobbyist that hurt washington are the corporate lobbyist. the drug manufacturers, cigarette companies (not so much anymore) and those types.

Check this out, it may give you some more information.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

[legelegel]

The gaffes made by either of our two candidates don't really bother me, because most of them can be explained. They just show these two men are human. I find them more entertaining or sometimes awkward than defective.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8ykt1Ry5M

Obama apparently had a great uncle who was in Germany when the concentration camp in Bucherwald was liberated.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FjNsHB_L4Vw&feature=related

[wickerbill]

Oh crap, I didn't know he lies. Good thing a republican president has never done that.

[WyomingOSUAlum]

FYI... He was referring to the 57 primary/caucus contests...

1-49: The 49 states besides Texas
50: Texas primary
51: Texas caucus
52: Washington, DC
53: American Samoa
54: U.S. Virgin Islands
55: Democrats Abroad
56: Guam
57: Puerto Rico

Man he sure is ignorant....

OBAMA '08




You can't be serious.

I'm sure the guy made a simple error and didn't mean what fell out of his mouth. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

Are you certain you've heard the actual clip? I'm sure he knows that there are 50 states. But that aside, he references that he has one more state to go, and then mentions two by name. So not only did he make a political/geographical error, he made a mathematical one as well in less than 30 seconds.

He's a sharp guy. Really, he is. But stop trying to make this into something that it's obviously not. He blew it. Period.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsBKGpwi58

[jakeman]

If Obama wins this election, this country will shift further to the left and socialism than most of her citizens ever thought possible.

His socialist ideas and plans are downright frightening, I don't care his religion or color. He is left of Bernie Sanders and he is a self described "Democratic Socialist". Is that really what you guys want. To be given everything you don't have by those of us that do have it? Why don't you go work, buy what you can afford, and don't buy what you can't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

It's scary I tell ya. Scary.

Protect people from forclosures? How about people don't freakin' buy houses they can't possibly freakin' afford? Are you kidding me? If they want to live in government housing how about they move into a section 8 house or apartment and not a 3500 sq ft house in a gated community on an interest only note, on a 50,000 or less annual income. Good Lord. You can't possibly be serious!

I could go on, item by item, but I'm tired and just don't feel like it. This country wasn't built on socialist ideas, nor can it long survive being run on socialist principles.

[WyomingOSUAlum]

If Obama wins this election, this country will shift further to the left and socialism than most of her citizens ever thought possible.

His socialist ideas and plans are downright frightening, I don't care his religion or color. He is left of Bernie Sanders and he is a self described "Democratic Socialist". Is that really what you guys want. To be given everything you don't have by those of us that do have it? Why don't you go work, buy what you can afford, and don't buy what you can't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

It's scary I tell ya. Scary.

Protect people from forclosures? How about people don't freakin' buy houses they can't possibly freakin' afford? Are you kidding me? If they want to live in government housing how about they move into a section 8 house or apartment and not a 3500 sq ft house in a gated community on an interest only note, on a 50,000 or less annual income. Good Lord. You can't possibly be serious!

I could go on, item by item, but I'm tired and just don't feel like it. This country wasn't built on socialist ideas, nor can it long survive being run on socialist principles.




Hard to argue with that, IMO.

[OSUchris]

If Obama wins this election, this country will shift further to the left and socialism than most of her citizens ever thought possible.

His socialist ideas and plans are downright frightening, I don't care his religion or color. He is left of Bernie Sanders and he is a self described "Democratic Socialist". Is that really what you guys want. To be given everything you don't have by those of us that do have it? Why don't you go work, buy what you can afford, and don't buy what you can't?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

It's scary I tell ya. Scary.

Protect people from forclosures? How about people don't freakin' buy houses they can't possibly freakin' afford? Are you kidding me? If they want to live in government housing how about they move into a section 8 house or apartment and not a 3500 sq ft house in a gated community on an interest only note, on a 50,000 or less annual income. Good Lord. You can't possibly be serious!

I could go on, item by item, but I'm tired and just don't feel like it. This country wasn't built on socialist ideas, nor can it long survive being run on socialist principles.

See now these are starting to get to reasons to vote or not to vote for someone. Policy/philosophy differences are perfectly fair game, and are what elections are for. All these silly websites and email rumors do nothing but cheapen the process and the people that these men are.

I will say this though... I have been personally affected by off-shore IT outsourcing. I have seen how hundreds of quality developers and staff are pushed to the side when one of these great capitalistic companies decides to save some money by shipping the jobs to India. The problem is when this same company continues to reap in tax breaks, and other benefits that sound awfully 'socialist' if they were being given to a person... Living through this led me to really wonder if the GOP is really all that concerned with the middle-class and preserving jobs in the US. It also opened my eyes to what people working in the manufacturing industry were saying years ago. Of the two candidates only one thinks this is a problem and only one will work to stop this.

Both Obama and McCain are good men. Heck in a different election I would probably be voting for McCain. But just not this year....

OBAMA '08

[WyomingOSUAlum]

See now these are starting to get to reasons to vote or not to vote for someone. Policy/philosophy differences are perfectly fair game, and are what elections are for. All these silly websites and email rumors do nothing but cheapen the process and the people that these men are.

I will say this though... I have been personally affected by off-shore IT outsourcing. I have seen how hundreds of quality developers and staff are pushed to the side when one of these great capitalistic companies decides to save some money by shipping the jobs to India. The problem is when this same company continues to reap in tax breaks, and other benefits that sound awfully 'socialist' if they were being given to a person... Living through this led me to really wonder if the GOP is really all that concerned with the middle-class and preserving jobs in the US. It also opened my eyes to what people working in the manufacturing industry were saying years ago. Of the two candidates only one thinks this is a problem and only one will work to stop this.

Both Obama and McCain are good men. Heck in a different election I would probably be voting for McCain. But just not this year....

OBAMA '08




Sounds like these companies that are outsourcing need an excuse to stay home. I wonder if tax incentives would work in a case like that. Is that what Obama proposes?

On a personal level, I have a decision to make very soon. It's similar to decisions that corporate leaders have to make. We're going to sell our place in Wyoming and move to another state. I looked at California for a bit. If we spend a million dollars on a property, the 1% property tax would be $10,000 per year. Then you have a high state income tax rate, then you have higher gasoline prices, then you have higher sales tax rates. It didn't take me very long to eliminate California from the running.

Does Obama grasp this concept?

I remember hearing him say on TV that he wanted to raise the capital gains taxes to something around 22% (which I believe is much lower than his original proposal).

I know that Obama wants to raise taxes on "rich" Americans. If poor people created jobs for other people, then that might make sense. But since we've already given away billions upon billions of dollars of other people's money in an effort to rid the country of poverty and it hasn't worked, then maybe we should try something else.

Which tastes worse? The bad taste in your mouth to give "rich" corporations tax breaks? Or the bad taste in your mouth when your job is given to somebody in India?

It's a competitive world out there. Looks like we're getting our asses kicked for some reason. Let's try taxing our way out of this mess!!!!


:rollseyes:

[MisterE-NYC]

Democratic Socialism is odd. I think that in a responsible world it would work. But I definitely do not mind the political pendulum swinging left. Stop illegal wire tapping and protect my civil liberties and protect the bill of rights. Stop the torture of suspects, and follow habeas corpus.

As Ben Franklin is credited with saying "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." I think people no longer believe this.

And with foreclosures, it isn't necessarily happening to those who purchase with no possibility of paying. It could be the business man that got laid off, or the family with a sick child. I admit some people make poor decisions, and its their fault they are in their situation. But it is the others (and there are a lot of them) that just need some temporary help. Thats what i am for. Offer a helping hand and help someone back on their feet. Not a permanent hand, just enough to help them get by.

I too am glad we are getting to philosophy and issues.

It all stems from interpretation of this countries past. But its even more so then that, because back then they had these same problems (hence the bill of rights). What is the governments job, and how do they accomplish anything. It is impossible for everyone to agree on it. I know that i may be wrong, so i always welcome opinions and try to learn as much about everything that i can. I try not to live as a sheep.

[frankeaton]

Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor
will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands
over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/bchapel/Coach%20Gundy/oboma.jpg

Please take notice that the United Church of Christ that Obama is supposedly affiliated with is in no way associated with the individual independent Churches of Christ that follow the teachings of the New Testament as their guide. Christ's name is often used to identify churches that have no regard for teaching Bible truth. However, no matter what he claims to be associated with I think he is still a Muslim at heart and their goal is to kill all (you and me) who do not believe as they do. We are the infidels, whether Christian, Jewish, atheist or anything other than muslim.


Who is Barack Obama?

Very interesting and something that should be considered in your
choice.


If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to all
your contacts...this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of us
here in our own United States...better heed this and pray about it and share it.

We checked this out on "snopes.com". It is factual. Check for yourself.

Who is Barack Obama?

Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was born
in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM
from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHEIST from
Wichita, Kansas.
Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was two
years old, his parents divorced. Hi s father returned to Kenya. His
mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.?
When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocate to Indonesia. Obama
attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a
Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is
quick to point out that, "He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school."

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear that
that he is not a radical.

Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that this
influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama returned
to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct
influence over his son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann Dunham,
introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi school
in Jakarta.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the Muslim
terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world. Since
it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major
public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined
the United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim
background. ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he
DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.

Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor
will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands
over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential
candidacy.

The Muslims have said they plan on destroying the US from the inside
out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through the
President of the United States, one of their own!!!!

how do the donkeys keep moving more left every 4 years????????

[JimBob]

Democratic Socialism is odd. I think that in a responsible world it would work. But I definitely do not mind the political pendulum swinging left. Stop illegal wire tapping and protect my civil liberties and protect the bill of rights. Stop the torture of suspects, and follow habeas corpus.

As Ben Franklin is credited with saying "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." I think people no longer believe this.

And with foreclosures, it isn't necessarily happening to those who purchase with no possibility of paying. It could be the business man that got laid off, or the family with a sick child. I admit some people make poor decisions, and its their fault they are in their situation. But it is the others (and there are a lot of them) that just need some temporary help. Thats what i am for. Offer a helping hand and help someone back on their feet. Not a permanent hand, just enough to help them get by.

I too am glad we are getting to philosophy and issues.

It all stems from interpretation of this countries past. But its even more so then that, because back then they had these same problems (hence the bill of rights). What is the governments job, and how do they accomplish anything. It is impossible for everyone to agree on it. I know that i may be wrong, so i always welcome opinions and try to learn as much about everything that i can. I try not to live as a sheep.


There's nothing like a good dose of naivete' to end the evening. :rollseyes:

[Pokes4Life]

And Pokes4life how is this one of the most ignorant and misinformed threads? I'm just wondering.

Well it's comments like frankeaton's above about Obama's family, and general statements that have been made in thread about Islam in general as to why I said what I said.

Frank,

I like how your post says it was checked with snopes, and if you were to check snopes, you would see what you posted for the most part is wrong.

It has been discounted time and again that the school that Obama went to as a kid in Indonesia was not a radical muslim school.

Vote or don't vote for the man based on his general ideas, not all this made up trash being thrown around about his past or his religion.

[MisterE-NYC]

hahaha. I like how snopes is on there, though on snopes, it goes through and debunks the "facts" Check it out for yourself. http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
You will see that it is filth. Nice try, but you have been fooled into believing and spreading lies.

I understand what you mean Pokes4life

And the Pledge of allegaince? Well the photo you posted is during the playing of the national anthem. And there are no rules about placing your hand on your heart during the national anthem. Pledge yes. 2 of my best friends joined the Marine Corps, and toured in Iraq. But when we use to go to a sporting event with them, they did not have their hands on their hearts. In uniform they salute the flag, but in plain clothes, they stand at attention. I love this country and normally do not put my hand over my heart during the anthem. I stand at attention. But there is no guidelines for it.

And here is a clip of Obama leading the Pledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD6bKaVW-ls

[wickerbill]

I hope those that are posting crap like the picture above aren't using things like that to make their decisions on who to vote for President. The president will make a lot of decisions that will affect your life a lot more than whether he puts his hand over his heart during the national anthem. Why not focus on those issues instead of meaningless BS?

[Verb]

Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegiance nor
will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their hands
over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/bchapel/Coach%20Gundy/oboma.jpg

Please take notice that the United Church of Christ that Obama is supposedly affiliated with is in no way associated with the individual independent Churches of Christ that follow the teachings of the New Testament as their guide.

The UCC is an old and respected Protestant denomination, often known as the Congregational Church. Are you suggesting that the Congregationalists don't follow the teachings of Christ????

[Inky29]

Actually I believe there is a guideline for the national anthem and it states you should stand facing the flag with your hand over your heart. There are no penalties for not doing it but it's in the US Code.

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

Section 171 I believe. It's really just common sense. If he chooses not to that's his business but he shouldn't be upset nor should the people who support him if it pisses people off.

And once again, I ask his supporters, what in his history as a state representative indicates that he's capable of PRODUCING change. It's one thing to talk about it, it's another to do it. I can talk all day long about wanting to power my house with butterfly kisses and unicorn tears but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

I guess my biggest fear this election is I don't want any more entitlement programs and I really think that at BO's core is more gov. programs. To me that just makes no logical sense. I see the way we've handled Social Security and shudder at the thought of the gov. trying to handle something like health care. I'll never argue that BO's an eloquent speaker but that doesn't equate to being a good president or that he's even qualified to be president.

[MisterE-NYC]

I did not know that, it is interesting.

According to the director of communications for the Maryland Historical Society, modern custom does not require a hand over the heart when listening to the Star-Spangled Banner (as compared to the Pledge of Allegiance).

And none of the candidates are facing the flag, they are all facing the singer., except Richardson whom is facing the crowd. Obama was the only one that sang along with it. But people can judge based on anything.

What has he done that shows change. Well first the Ethics reform he passed is a major deal. Veterans now get to make phone calls and disability payments that they were suppose to. Higher education pell grants. co sponsored McCains Secure America and Orderly immigration and worked with McCain on bill to lower greenhouse emissions by. Coburn-Obama Transparency act. Those are just a few random things i know off the top of my head. I know on his website there are lots more. here is a list i found online that has some of his stuff (some are repeats of ones i listed.
1. Sponsored the "Higher Education through Pell Grant Expansion Act".
2. Co-sponsored the "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act" proposed by John McCain.
3. Amended the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act" proposed by Arlen Specter
4. Supported the "Secure Fence Act" to build fences and other security along the Mexican border.
5. Introduced the "Lugar-Obama" initiative expanding a previous initiative to reduce the threat of conventional weapons.
6. Was the primary sponsor of the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act," which was signed into law December 22, 2006.
7. The "Coburn-Obama Transparency Act" would create a web site listing all organizations receiving federal funding from 2007 onward. It would provide a breakdown of which agencies gave out funds, what organizations received funds, and what the funds were used for.
8. He joined Russ Feingold in passing a bill to strengthen legislation regulating legigslators' travel on corporate jets.
9. Along with Charles Schumer he passed a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections including fraudulent flyers and automatic phone calls.
10. Co-sponsored a bill on climate change with John McCain to reduce greenhouse gases by 2/3 by 2050.

His accomplishments in the private sector:
1. Headed a non-profit organization assisting churches to organize job training programs
2. After receiving his law degree magna cum laude from Harvard, he directed a Chicago area voter registration drive.
2a. He was elected Harvard Law Review's first "black" president.
3. As an attorney with with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases.
4. He was a lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School from 1993 until his election to the Senate in 2004.
5. He has authored 2 books: The first was Dreams from My Father a memoir of his childhood and early career. The audio book earned a Grammy for Best Spoken Word Album. His second book, The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream has been on the New York Times Best Seller List for 30 weeks.

There are lots more. I know he cosponsored and introduced over 800 things in the Illinois legislature, and other ones in the US senate. Research is the best method to learn more.

And yes, from last night, i guess i am naive, but i like to think of it as optimism. If everyone looks through and sees and only thinks of the bad, then we all see the darkness. You have to have some visionaries that will go against the odds and try to change the status quo.

[Erick]

According to the director of communications for the Maryland Historical Society, modern custom does not require a hand over the heart when listening to the Star-Spangled Banner (as compared to the Pledge of Allegiance).

And none of the candidates are facing the flag, they are all facing the singer., except Richardson whom is facing the crowd. Obama was the only one that sang along with it. But people can judge based on anything.



Who sets "modern customs? Liberal pansies, that's who. I have never been to an event where the majority, or 10% of the people for that matter did not place their hand over their heart. Using the word "modern" is like using the word "progressive"

Anyone who has been to a high profile political event can tell you that typically there are multiple flags at such events. I am nearly certain that everyone was at least looking at a flag. I have heard there was as many as 57 flags. One for each state. :action-smiley-033:

[T. J.]

What concerns me first is his early muslin education...

Hear hear! We don't need somebody in the Oval Office who only knows about plain-woven cotton fabric.

Oh, wait, you meant MUSLIM. Oh, well, yes, that too. What somebody learns at age 6 in elementary school is certainly enough to disqualify him from any public office.

[Inky29]

That's a nice list but considering many of the things on there were never passed out of the Senate or so widely supported by members of congress I don't see how it relates to him showing he can accomplish the "change" he's talking about. That's not really a knock on him in my book because I just don't think our political system is set up for quick change, it's designed for gridlock. I just think it's naive and nothing more than lying to make people believe that by electing someone that, poof, all their problems will be solved and that things are going to get better overnight. The majority of all politicians do it so I guess I just don't see him as much different than the rest of the crowd.

[Verb]

Hear hear! We don't need somebody in the Oval Office who only knows about plain-woven cotton fabric.

Oh, wait, you meant MUSLIM. Oh, well, yes, that too. What somebody learns at age 6 in elementary school is certainly enough to disqualify him from any public office.

Haha!

[WyomingOSUAlum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj4VK9wVAi0

[WyomingOSUAlum]

1. Sponsored the "Higher Education through Pell Grant Expansion Act".
2. Co-sponsored the "Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act" proposed by John McCain.
3. Amended the "Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act" proposed by Arlen Specter
4. Supported the "Secure Fence Act" to build fences and other security along the Mexican border.
5. Introduced the "Lugar-Obama" initiative expanding a previous initiative to reduce the threat of conventional weapons.
6. Was the primary sponsor of the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act," which was signed into law December 22, 2006.
7. The "Coburn-Obama Transparency Act" would create a web site listing all organizations receiving federal funding from 2007 onward. It would provide a breakdown of which agencies gave out funds, what organizations received funds, and what the funds were used for.
8. He joined Russ Feingold in passing a bill to strengthen legislation regulating legigslators' travel on corporate jets.
9. Along with Charles Schumer he passed a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections including fraudulent flyers and automatic phone calls.
10. Co-sponsored a bill on climate change with John McCain to reduce greenhouse gases by 2/3 by 2050.



OK, so what you're saying is the only thing that he initiated alone is the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act". Wow! Now THAT'S leadership ability that absolutely qualifies one to be the leader of the free world!

[WyomingOSUAlum]

I wondered what the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act of 2006" was about. It's an expenditure of $52 million dollars in what seems to be an extension of the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act of 2005".

Seems like a worthwhile expenditure of money to me. Not so sure it's a banner/career capping achievement, though.

[AustinPokeFan]

J.C. Watts for US Senate? Yes.
For President? I'm not sure who I would really like to see as President right now.

I don't think we have seen a really good man run in a long time. Maybe we expect too much from one person.

I don't know how much stock to put in this, but it is whispered that JC felt very slighted and short shrifted by the GOP while he was in congress.

[Boss 24]

You can't talk about JC without getting a few words of wisdom from his dad

"A black man voting for a republican is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders."

Comedy

[JimBob]

I wondered what the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act of 2006" was about. It's an expenditure of $52 million dollars in what seems to be an extension of the "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act of 2005".

Seems like a worthwhile expenditure of money to me. Not so sure it's a banner/career capping achievement, though.


You missed this: Per his great debate answer, he'll meet with Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong, Hamas, Chavez, etc. without any pre-conditions. They'll have a group hug, a choreographed Kumbaya sing-along, and tell you: Don't worry, be happy!:rollseyes:

[WyomingOSUAlum]

Time for some worldwide Theodore Roosevelt diplomacy, James Robert!

[CaliforniaCowboy]

speaking of housing reform (i.e., mortgage lending) ...

why in the heck is the liberal Senate insiting that a national fignerprinting database be created? (didn't our "friend" (i.e., big brother) Obama vote for this bill?)

[frankeaton]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2008/06/10/cocky_ignorance?page=2

note the author is of color

[FloridaPoke]

I will say this though... I have been personally affected by off-shore IT outsourcing. I have seen how hundreds of quality developers and staff are pushed to the side when one of these great capitalistic companies decides to save some money by shipping the jobs to India. The problem is when this same company continues to reap in tax breaks, and other benefits that sound awfully 'socialist' if they were being given to a person... Living through this led me to really wonder if the GOP is really all that concerned with the middle-class and preserving jobs in the US. It also opened my eyes to what people working in the manufacturing industry were saying years ago. Of the two candidates only one thinks this is a problem and only one will work to stop this.

OBAMA '08

Sorry you have been effected by a globalized economy, but there is no single public policy that will stop globalization. Here's another way to look at it. Without the multiple billions of dollars invested annually by the venture capital and private equity industry in the US, there wouldn't be an IT industry to start with.

What most people don't stop to analyze is that our US economy has moved rapidly and swiftly to an intellectual property economy, not a labor based one. Lines of sovereign demarcation between countries will continue to disappear when it comes to labor markets. Nothing Obama or anyone else can do about that.

What is the solution to US employment? More entrepreneurial risk taking and more risk investment in new intellectual property, which is what positively sets us apart in global competitive markets. Is that accomplished by job protectionism? No f'ing way. Is it accomplished by increasing taxes and decreasing risk incentives? You figure that one out.

Obama is doing a great job of pandering to people like you who have been effected by unstoppable globalization. Unfortunately, his promises are empty as there is nothing in the world he can do about it without increasing entrepreneurial business expansion, which requires risk.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

I will say this though... I have been personally affected by off-shore IT outsourcing. I have seen how hundreds of quality developers and staff are pushed to the side when one of these great capitalistic companies decides to save some money by shipping the jobs to India. The problem is when this same company continues to reap in tax breaks, and other benefits that sound awfully 'socialist' if they were being given to a person... Living through this led me to really wonder if the GOP is really all that concerned with the middle-class and preserving jobs in the US. It also opened my eyes to what people working in the manufacturing industry were saying years ago. Of the two candidates only one thinks this is a problem and only one will work to stop this.

Both Obama and McCain are good men. Heck in a different election I would probably be voting for McCain. But just not this year....

OBAMA '08

Obama is NOT a "good man"... let's get that straight first... he associates with criminals, bombers, terrorists, and racist bigots; that is not my definition of a "good man".

Secondly, I stopped complaining about jobs going to India long ago, and so should you. Consider for a moment the greater good, over your own individual needs. Pakistan is Muslim. India is right next to Pakistan and they don't like each other. Pakistan has nuclear bombs. India is relatively near China (not friendly, with billions of people), and some other Mulsim countries.

If something severe were to happen (like global jiihad when we attack Iran), then we need a country with a BILLION citizens to be firmly entrenched at the hip with the US.

We absolutely need to prop up India in any way, shape or form to ensure our global safety.

I smile every time I call a help desk and I hear a friendly voice with an Indian accent. :action-smiley-033:

[OSUchris]

Obama is NOT a "good man"... let's get that straight first... he associates with criminals, bombers, terrorists, and racist bigots; that is not my definition of a "good man".

Secondly, I stopped complaining about jobs going to India long ago, and so should you. Consider for a moment the greater good, over your own individual needs. Pakistan is Muslim. India is right next to Pakistan and they don't like each other. Pakistan has nuclear bombs. India is relatively near China (not friendly, with billions of people), and some other Mulsim countries.

If something severe were to happen (like global jiihad when we attack Iran), then we need a country with a BILLION citizens to be firmly entrenched at the hip with the US.

We absolutely need to prop up India in any way, shape or form to ensure our global safety.

I smile every time I call a help desk and I hear a friendly voice with an Indian accent. :action-smiley-033:

Yeah... Thanks for the advice there... I will just get over it. Oh, and by the way India has over a 160 million Muslims... I guess you have to start hating them now.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

Yeah... Thanks for the advice there... I will just get over it. Oh, and by the way India has over a 160 million Muslims... I guess you have to start hating them now.

for the record, I did not say that I hate anybody; don't know why you're going there...

if you haven't noticed we are at war with Muslim extremists, and have been since the country was founded. It has nothing to do with hate.

[TheLoveDoctor]

As a doctor, I am always cautious when people talk about healthcare and making it more "affordable". Affordable for whom? Someone will pay for your healthcare if you can't I guarantee it. I went to school for a loooong time so I could pay for my family's healthcare and a few other's as well it seems but why should I foot the bill for someone else? So Obama's method of making it more affordable is justing letting someone else pay the bill for you, that's not much change as far as I'm concerned. If you want to make it truly affordable then reform the amount of profits made by the insurance industry who basically make huge profits by denying healthcare.

If you want socialized medicine, talk with those who use the VA or Indian health systems now. That is what socialized or government ran healthcare is and would be for all of us if healthcare is socialized. I have not met anyone who would trade their health insurance for either of those systems unless they had no choice.

I would love to see college be free. Turn our country into a highly educated and upper class wage societly that can pay their own taxes and have a wealthy country instead of an ignorant, welfare and medicaid abusing society that lives on food stamps. Don't take away my freedom to get the best of everything if that is what I want to work for and make it hard for people to not work and be on welfare. Give opportunities for success but don't hand-feed. Anyway, I'm sure there are some liberal ideas I could understand but I sure don't understand a lot of the social reforms and placing the tax burden on a few instead of spreading it around.

[OrangeSailor]

I have come to a strange conclusion. I realize that every 4 years we are all up in arms about who will make the better president and why. Usually we take the side of whatever party we are a part of and strongly supporting our candidate or making excuses for why they said/did this or that. What I'm really wondering is this...Why do we not get as worked up about the Senate or House as much as we do with the President?? I understand the president is the "leader of the free world" but do you really think the President has enough "pull" regardless of who they are to really make a complete and sweeping change. If what we really want is CHANGE then we need to seriously need to look at our current Senate and House as hard as we do our President. I for one say we need a sweeping change in our government and it is our responsibility as citizens and taxpayers to make those changes. It is easy to fault/praise George Bush/Bill Clinton(and any president for that matter) for what he did as president, but who controlled congress during that time? I ask you this...Who writes/proposes/votes for the laws of the United States??

[CaliforniaCowboy]

Hey doc...

I think that we're trying to make "Insurance" Affordable, not necessarialy "Healthcare" itself.

We want to make ACCESS to healthcare affordable.

Heathcare, like any other free market commodity, will even itself out if government intervention is excluded.

The price of elective surgeries like Lipo and Lasik have dropped dramatically since they were introduced and are now pretty much "affordable" to anybody who wants it; regardless of insurance.

The key to the whole mess is to get the government out, not increase government involvement like Nobama wants to do.

.... well, that and get rid of the Illegals that are sapping our hospital emergency rooms dry...

[TheLoveDoctor]

I guess that's what I meant. If healthcare (or insurance) is made affordable for you in Obama's plan it is less affordable for me because I am considered "wealthy" and to subsidize your insurance my taxes will go up (I guess I don't need my money that I earn as much as others). However, if the insurance companies didn't need to make quadrillions at the same time they are denying paying for the meds, etc that you need, then your insurance might be cheaper without raising anyone's taxes.

The other problem with insurance costs is that the decision has been taken away from the person who pays for it. The company you work for decides which ins company they will use and you just decide on the level of coverage you want (deductible, copay, PPO vs HMO, etc). If there were actually free market choices where you yourself could shop around and change your coverage if you weren't satisfied instead of just once a year then insurance companies would be in a more competative situation and the price would go down as well.

I was mainly just saying that making me pay more while someone else pays less is not really changing healthcare or reforming anything. It is just shifting the burden.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

I would have to agree with you Doc...

making more free loaders (ala Obama's plan) is not a valid solution.

Having a large segment of the population without healthcare coverage is a problem, but the solution is NOT to make it free to more by making others pay for it.

The current medicare tax is a big joke, since they keep increasing it without calling it increasing taxes; and absolutely nothing comes from it... increasing that tax even more certainly will not solve anything.

Socialized medicine is not the solution, for the examples that you provided and others (like Canada, England, and other European countries that have tried it and are backing away from it). It simply doesn't work on any level.

There are solutions out there, but Obama doesn't have a clue about how to approach the issue -- and why would he, he's got that great plan that we pay for, so he's not even affected.

[jakeman]

I was mainly just saying that making me pay more while someone else pays less is not really changing healthcare or reforming anything. It is just shifting the burden.

Why you poor silly man. Don't you see, because you are rich you owe the poor people your money, so they can have exactly what you have, but without having to lift a hand to do so. They are poor & uneducated, so they shouldn't have to work to have what you have. It should just be given to them, because they are poor. They can't possibly afford to work for what they need. When it comes right down to it, you are probably responsible for their sorry lot in life, and really should be punished for causing them to carry the burden of being poor. Shame on you, and all your hard working, rich, buddies and colleagues for being rich in the first place.

At least that's the way I understand it from Obama & Clinton'(s) camps.

[TheLoveDoctor]

It would be great if healthcare was more affordable to EVERYONE. In other words, find a way to deliver the same quality for a lower cost and pass the savings on to everyone. The majority of the money you pay for your insurance goes to the insurance company and not for actual medical costs.

Socialized medicine as an idea sounds good but in practice is even more expensive as countries who have it have very high tax rates (so again, it is not really more affordable, someone else is paying for it). We just need a way to increase competition between the ins companies and drive the costs down.

And, why are all of these people uninsured? Unemployed? on welfare? crack heads? college kids who may not need it because they are young and healthy? self employed? spend $400 a month on cigarettes/casino/stupid shit/etc instead of insurance?

I got off on a tangent but I meant to say that Obama's plan (in my mind) doesn't solve any problems and doesn't create any real "change", it is just rearranging the food on your plate to make it look like you ate some. It is just making those of us that worked our ass off to get somewhere pay for those that somehow didn't so they won't do without. But in the real world people sometimes do without and don't have everything but that is the "necessity is the mother of invention" impetus to improve your own standings instead of holding your hand out.

I don't want the government in charge of anything else, hell it's too big and has too many responsibilities now. Start with keeping Salmonella out of the tomatoes and if you can handle that, then we can talk.

[jakeman]

I've got a medical/insurance/cost story.

I have a friend that has a kid that rides motocross races, like a little wild man. He crashed while his dad and I were out of town on business and broke an arm. His mother not knowing what the hell to do loaded him up in the truck and took him to the first AM?PM Emergency clinic she could find. She carried him in the door, and was told "sorry, we don't take insurance, cash, check or credit card only". The kid is screaming, sweating, and probably crapping all over himself so she said, "we ain't broke" fix him." Then she started worrying about how she was gonna pay for it and how she was gonna explain this whole deal to her husband. Then they hand her the bill. It's $250 bucks, and includes a couple of follow up X-rays and cast removal. They also advise her to take him to their regular doc when she can the next week.

Fast forward 2 years, little wild man crashes again, and breaks the other arm. They find their way to a hospital emergency room, their copay is 20 bucks, the deductible is $250 and the bill was over $2000.

Man, that health insurance is sure a life saver.

[FloridaPoke]

It would be great if healthcare was more affordable to EVERYONE. In other words, find a way to deliver the same quality for a lower cost and pass the savings on to everyone. The majority of the money you pay for your insurance goes to the insurance company and not for actual medical costs.

Socialized medicine as an idea sounds good but in practice is even more expensive as countries who have it have very high tax rates (so again, it is not really more affordable, someone else is paying for it). We just need a way to increase competition between the ins companies and drive the costs down.

And, why are all of these people uninsured? Unemployed? on welfare? crack heads? college kids who may not need it because they are young and healthy? self employed? spend $400 a month on cigarettes/casino/stupid shit/etc instead of insurance?

I got off on a tangent but I meant to say that Obama's plan (in my mind) doesn't solve any problems and doesn't create any real "change", it is just rearranging the food on your plate to make it look like you ate some. It is just making those of us that worked our ass off to get somewhere pay for those that somehow didn't so they won't do without. But in the real world people sometimes do without and don't have everything but that is the "necessity is the mother of invention" impetus to improve your own standings instead of holding your hand out.

I don't want the government in charge of anything else, hell it's too big and has too many responsibilities now. Start with keeping Salmonella out of the tomatoes and if you can handle that, then we can talk.

Doc:

First of all...thanks for posting here. It is nice to see a real provider weigh in.

I have a question for you.....and for everyone for that matter. I have seen many statistics bantered about the percentage of our total health care dollar spent on palliative or hospice care. While real access and availability to this type of care has increased exponentially over the past few years, we are still spending an inordinate amount of our total healthcare budget on the past 6 months of life. This is cultural in our society.....that is someone who is a gonner for sure but will take 6-12 months to be gone.....will suck probably more healthcare dollars in that past 6-12 than the cumulative amount the rest of their previous life.

Does this make sense to anyone but the insensitive like me (being facicious :)
My mother passed away recently and we made sure she was kept at home and the lion's share of her palliative care was provided by family and some hired help (relatively cheap by comparison). I have other friends whose loved ones spent most of their last months in intensive care when it was obvious there was no end game.

And I travel for most of my life in business. From my observation, we are the only country that expends this level of federal gov't dollars on the last, hopeless months. Most cultures focus solely on comfort, which is a much cheaper proposition.

And to the question. Am I full of crap here? :)

[legelegel]

I have a question ... for everyone ... I have seen many statistics bantered about the percentage of our total health care dollar spent on palliative or hospice care. While real access and availability to this type of care has increased exponentially over the past few years, we are still spending an inordinate amount of our total healthcare budget on the past 6 months of life. This is cultural in our society.....that is someone who is a gonner for sure but will take 6-12 months to be gone.....will suck probably more healthcare dollars in that past 6-12 than the cumulative amount the rest of their previous life.

Does this make sense to anyone but the insensitive like me (being facicious :)
My mother passed away recently and we made sure she was kept at home and the lion's share of her palliative care was provided by family and some hired help (relatively cheap by comparison). I have other friends whose loved ones spent most of their last months in intensive care when it was obvious there was no end game.

And I travel for most of my life in business. From my observation, we are the only country that expends this level of federal gov't dollars on the last, hopeless months. Most cultures focus solely on comfort, which is a much cheaper proposition.

And to the question. Am I full of crap here? :)

No.

Maybe some American Indians had it right when the elderly simply walked away form the group so as to no longer be a burden. This was looked upon as a very honorable and courageous act. While practical back then, such an act today would be considered harsh and unacceptable.


In addition to these transformations in the world of the living, the American death ethos also changed because of the following trends in the nature and distribution of death.

Changes in who dies--From youth to the elderly as the culture's death lepers. One has but to look at the demographics of developing societies to see where we once were. In civilization's earliest period, women's average life span may have been less than 28 years and infant mortality as high as 75 percent. The connection between death and childhood largely remained in this country through the eighteenth century. In Puritan New England (http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/usdeath.cfm), where only 6 in 10 children reached adulthood, parents usually sent their offspring away to the home of relatives or friends supposedly as a method of discipline. In reality this practice probably arose to prevent the death of a child from causing parents too much emotional pain, for which reason we now send our infirm elderly to nursing homes. Nowadays, so relatively rare have childhood deaths become that the parental grief occasioned by stillbirths and miscarriages may be relatively equal to the parental grief of the past following the deaths of young children.

Indeed, death has become the province of the elderly, with nearly 80 percent of all deaths in this country occurring to individuals over 65 years of age. The assumption that citizens will live to see their biblical three score and ten years is reflected in a new statistic of the federal government: YPLL, "years of potential life lost" when people die before the age of 65. In many ways the American "problems" of old age are bound-up with the "problems" of dying. Gauging from their increasing segregation from other age groups, the elderly are our culture's "death leper

Changes in when we die--From premature to post mature deaths. While the death ethos of historical societies was shaped by the prevalence of unanticipated and premature deaths, death now typically occurs upon the conclusion of full, completed lives. Instead of dying with one's proverbial "boots on," death increasingly occurs among those already disengaged from the social mainstream. When death does occur prematurely, such as when a teenager is murdered or a young father dies in an auto accident, it most often occurs because of man made (hence avoidable) causes.

Changes in how we die--From Sudden to Slow-motion Deaths. There have been profound changes in the very quality of death. Owing to innovations in public sanitation and medical technology, death now typically occurs in slow-motion due to degenerative diseases, often exhausting the resources and emotions of families. Because of our tendency to depersonalize those most likely to die, slow-motion deaths mean that individuals must now die a number of social mini-deaths before actually physiologically expiring.
http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/death-1.html

[bleedorange]

"Today is a good day to die"

http://pov.imv.au.dk/Issue_02/section_2/artc2B31.jpeg

[TheLoveDoctor]

concerning Jakeman's story: They could have (if they didn't) turned in the $250 receipt to their insurance and gotten reimbursed (maybe, depending on how much went toward the deductible. But even if it all went towards it, it would have been paid for the year). Second, stay away from the ER if you can unless you think you are having a heart attack, stroke, appendix attack, in other words, something you will die from if not cared for right then. Sometimes it is hard to decide if it really bad or just looks bad so err on the side of caution.

Concerning Florida Poke: Some hospices are funded through a trust or other source and don't cost the taxpayers anything. Some Medicare pays for. But it is true that most of the Medicare dollars are spent in end of life care (usually hospital bills, hospice is much cheaper than ICU care). Hospice IS palliative care and is reasonable. Some folks want the full court press even in hopeless situations and have long stays in ICU which is very expensive. It certainly depends on the situation: quality of life before and after the illness, how old the person is, etc. so it is hard to make a blanket judgement call.

[AggieSpice]

Doc:

First of all...thanks for posting here. It is nice to see a real provider weigh in.

I have a question for you.....and for everyone for that matter. I have seen many statistics bantered about the percentage of our total health care dollar spent on palliative or hospice care. While real access and availability to this type of care has increased exponentially over the past few years, we are still spending an inordinate amount of our total healthcare budget on the past 6 months of life. This is cultural in our society.....that is someone who is a gonner for sure but will take 6-12 months to be gone.....will suck probably more healthcare dollars in that past 6-12 than the cumulative amount the rest of their previous life.

Does this make sense to anyone but the insensitive like me (being facicious :)
My mother passed away recently and we made sure she was kept at home and the lion's share of her palliative care was provided by family and some hired help (relatively cheap by comparison). I have other friends whose loved ones spent most of their last months in intensive care when it was obvious there was no end game.

And I travel for most of my life in business. From my observation, we are the only country that expends this level of federal gov't dollars on the last, hopeless months. Most cultures focus solely on comfort, which is a much cheaper proposition.

And to the question. Am I full of crap here? :)

i don't think you are full of crap. i am all for being injected with some cyanide or whatever might kill me quickly if i am hooked up to a bunch of tubes at 92 (if i am lucky enough to live that long!). i would be happy to write out a detailed living will allowing me to be knocked off at the point where i can no longer feed myself, take myself to the toilet, wipe my own @$$, etc. i also think anyone over 85 should have the right to go and visit dr. kevorkian if they so choose. :angel:

[CaliforniaCowboy]

I heard some interesting tidbits on the drive in to work today.

1) only 10% of the population is NOT covered by insurance
2) 5% of those not insured, do so BY CHOICE

so we have only 5% of the population that apparently cannot afford insurance or are not already covered by Mediwhatever... yet the Dems are making it out to be the worst crsis ever facing the American people.

We need some changes, but wholesale changes and those proposed by Nobama are not needed.

3) Most States spend 50% of their budget on healthcare related costs.

I don't know how much more we could spend to capture the last 5%, but I can assure you that I am paying way to much in Medicare tax, for which there is no cap .... so in essence, the more you earn, the more you pay for others to have Medicare; with no limit.

I'm all for helping the indigent, but this is simply blatant redistribution of wealth.

[WyomingOSUAlum]

The answer is "Mexicare". Anybody without health insurance, we ship their ass to Mexico to help balance things out.

[Boss 24]

The answer is "Mexicare". Anybody without health insurance, we ship their ass to Mexico to help balance things out.


Best idea in the whole thread.

[legelegel]

Only 10% of United States citizens have no health insurance?

If that percentage is anywhere close to being right, there would have to be a lot of people with very high deductibles.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

Only 10% of United States citizens have no health insurance?

If that percentage is anywhere close to being right, there would have to be a lot of people with very high deductibles.

Citizens... not illegals ;)


and just why would there have to be a lot of people with very high deductibles?

not following along with that line of reasoning. They are lying to us (the Dems)... it's fear mongering... media hype... nothing more.

[legelegel]

Citizens... not illegals ;)


and just why would there have to be a lot of people with very high deductibles?

not following along with that line of reasoning. They are lying to us (the Dems)... it's fear mongering... media hype... nothing more.

The self-employed have to pay the entire amount of their insurance and they can reduce the high premiums with a high deductible ranging from $2,500 to $10,000 or even more.

It should be fairly easy to document the correct percentage with government data.

[legelegel]

The estimated population of the United States is now over 304,000,000. If you do the math the percentage of uninsured and inadequately insured would be over 20% and rising. It's one of the few things the Democrats have got right.


One birth every.................................. 7 seconds
One death every.................................. 13 seconds
One international migrant (net) every............ 29 seconds
Net gain of one person every..................... 10 seconds



As rising health care costs and premiums are making it more difficult for many employers, particularly small firms, to provide affordable health insurance to their workers, increasing numbers of people under age 65 are finding themselves without access to employer-based coverage and ineligible for enrollment in public insurance programs.

The number of uninsured people climbed to 47 million in 2006, and an estimated 16 million adults are inadequately insured. Health insurance coverage is the most important determinant of access to health care. People who lack coverage have fundamentally different life experiences than those who have it; many die prematurely, and many suffer lost productivity and earnings.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=583404

http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html

[CaliforniaCowboy]

also in the US...

life expectancy in the US went up AGAIN

survival from severe diseise is up AGAIN



What does "inadequte insurance" mean? Medicare? Are we double counting?

Now it's gone from Uninsured to some "Dems definition of adequate insurance".


I'm not a fan of forced employer based insurance, per se, but one should certainly question if a company should be in business if they cannot compete properly. Wal-mart is the worst offender of this, by having mostly "part-time" employees and giving them Medicare forms during employement. Wal-mart is the single biggest abuser of the US medical system.


You're "congressional testimony" (whatever you need to make up something like that) lost me in the 2nd paragragh when she showed her cards and the bias of the "testimony"...


it is no wonder that the U.S. system performs poorly compared with systems in industrialized nations that have universal health insurance.

I contend that statement is an out-n-out lie. And that was the 2nd paragraph.

[MisterE-NYC]

I want health insurance. I cannot afford health insurance. I do not qualify for Medicaid. I do not feel I should be forced to buy it. But neither candidate is saying that. The only one that was was Senator Clinton, but she is out.

All of you dissing Obama's ideas, have you read McCain's? While there are many differences, McCain's website says "John McCain Will Reform Health Care Making It Easier For Individuals And Families To Obtain Insurance" "John McCain Will Reform The Tax Code To Offer More Choices Beyond Employer-Based Health Insurance Coverage" "John McCain Will Work With States To Establish A Guaranteed Access Plan"

Both candidates want to fix health care and help all afford it. Both have plausible ideas. Neither have a decent funding plan for it. At least one that is indepth. I mean they have plans for it i am sure, just none that are duly impressive to me. I am sure there will be more outlines in the future.

[Ostater]

The self-employed have to pay the entire amount of their insurance and they can reduce the high premiums with a high deductible ranging from $2,500 to $10,000 or even more.

It should be fairly easy to document the correct percentage with government data.

Legelegal: I think you hit this right on the head. I recently finished Grad school and was required to complete an internship. During this time I was not eligible for health insurance through my employer, but wanted to be covered. I could not afford to have what I would consider "good" insurance, because I was just starting my career. However, in order to be insured in case of an emergency I purchased the best insurance I could afford (a $5000 deductible, a limit of 4 doctor visits a year-for illness, and no prescription/dental/eye, etc coverage). My employer offers insurance now, but at the time, it was a struggle to afford it-even though I was working full time.

[legelegel]

His voting record says a lot on his feelings on the 2nd Amendment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifEg1aq6Emo