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JimBob
03-01-2008, 08:22 AM
Holder needs to unzip his lips


By DAVE SITTLER World Sports Columnist
3/1/2008


FIVE BIG 12 Conference men's basketball coaches are in the final days of the second season at their respective schools.

The one with the most overall wins, and the only one of the five to take his team to the postseason in his rookie year, is apparently also the only one fighting to save his job.

Here are the overall records of the Big 12's sophomore coaches going into Saturday's games:

Sean Sutton: Oklahoma State 37-25.

Doc Sadler: Nebraska 34-23.

Jeff Capel: Oklahoma 34-25.

Mike Anderson: Missouri, 33-25.

Gregg McDermott: Iowa State, 29-30.

Sutton, who took OSU to the NIT last season while the other four first- year coaches stayed home, has his streaking Cowboys back in the post-season hunt again.

OSU's young team has grown up the past month, winning four straight and five of its last six. That streak, which includes victories over teams ranked No. 4 and 16 at the time and also two road wins, indicates the future is bright for a rapidly maturing team that starts one senior.

But Sutton doesn't have any idea if he's a part of OSU's hoops future.

No one questions if Capel, Sadler, Anderson and McDermott will return for the 2008-09 season. Ditto for the 2009-10 season.

If they leave, it'll be their decision and not the wishes of the schools that signed them to five-year contracts.

That's why those continued sounds of silence at OSU are both deafening and baffling.

The future of a second-year coach with Sutton's accomplishments shouldn't even be an issue. But OSU athletic director Mike Holder made it one by his refusal to shoot down the rumors when they first started flying.

Holder fans, who also happen to be Sutton critics, maintain the Cowboys' AD doesn't have to say any more than what he told the Tulsa World on Jan. 28 when he said he supported Sutton.

OK, fine. But how long does that support last? Read Holder's comment and you decide.

"We've got a lot of games left to play," Holder said.

Holder was talking about this season, not the next four.

If he were talking about anything else, he would have said something similar about Mike Gundy in the football coach's second season. Holder told people to check back in five years to see how Gundy was doing.

Three days after talking to the World about Sutton, Holder told The Daily Oklahoman: "It's like every other program, we should just wait until the end of the year and see how the season plays out. Every sport here we evaluate after the season."

That's obviously every sport but football. Gundy had seven games left in his second season when Holder felt compelled to make his "five year" comment after OSU blew a 10-point lead in the final four minutes and lost at Kansas State.

Sutton's critics have said hecan't be compared to Gundy because of the history of the sports they coach at OSU. That logic's so twisted it's downright goofy.

OSU does have two national titles in hoops and zero in football. But the last basketball championship came 62 years ago!

Like football, the basketball program spent years wandering through the wilderness.

It was Sean Sutton, as both a solid player and excellent assistant coach, who helped enormously to restore OSU's long-dormant national reputation. True, he's been part of teams that ONLY made it to two Final Fours, but didn't win national titles.

If you think winning a national championship in 1946 was as difficult as it's been during Sutton's time at OSU, you're either out of touch with reality or hell-bent on getting him fired.

Gundy, meanwhile, did not take over a program that was destitute of success. The Cowboys had been to three consecutive bowl games when he was promoted to replace Les Miles.

And then there's the misconception that Holder hired Gundy, but not Sutton. And Holder wants coaches who are "his guys."

There is absolutely no doubt that Gundy is Holder's favorite guy. But Harry Birdwell was AD when Gundy was tapped to replace Miles.

Holder did the right thing when he stepped in during that second season and implored fans to give a Gundy five-year chance to prove himself.

The conventional wisdom is that OSU's recent success will force a reluctant Holder to give the embattled Sutton one more season.

I'm not buying that for a Still water second. If that were the case, why wouldn't Holder have already come out and confirmed it?

And to heck with one more season. Like Gundy, Sutton deserves the length of his contract to demonstrate if he can succeed at the Big 12 level.

Holder needs to speak up ASAP to stave off the negative recruiting other coaches are using big time against Sutton and OSU.

Yes, I know the majority of high school recruiting happens in the summer. But junior college recruiting is going on right now.

And Sutton's effort to sign a player from the junior college ranks, who will give OSU a badly needed dominant inside presence next season, has been severely handcuffed by the uncertainty about the coach's future.

Look, when you get down to it, fairness is what this is about. Just treat Sutton with the same amount of fairness afforded Gundy.

If Holder doesn't want to speak up now, how about some members of OSU's Board of Regents demonstrating they are more than mere figureheads? And an encouraging word from incoming president Burns Hargis would also be welcomed.

Or is the prevailing and growing perception about OSU true? Is it really only Holder and mega-donor Boone Pickens who truly run OSU?

Those sounds of silence coming from OSU's perceived movers and shakers would seem to scream that it's a fact.

CaliforniaCowboy
03-01-2008, 10:54 AM
I tend to agree with Sittler on this one... what is going on?

PokesFanatic
03-01-2008, 11:53 AM
I too agree with Sittler. Holder needs to come out of the shadows and support Coach Sutton. We're past the growing pains of his transition to head coach, and his achievements thus far outweigh those of Mike Gundy. It's deeply troubling the lack of support that Sean Sutton has gotten from Holder.

AnniePokely
03-01-2008, 11:59 AM
Dave's been reading the message boards again...

CaliforniaCowboy
03-01-2008, 12:07 PM
It does make one wonder if there is more to it (behind the scenes) that what we are made aware of.

Gman
03-01-2008, 02:33 PM
Holder fans, who also happen to be Sutton critics, maintain the Cowboys' AD doesn't have to say any more than what he told the Tulsa World on Jan. 28 when he said he supported Sutton.

BS. It's ridiculous to speak in absolutes like this, stating that everyone who thinks Holder has done a good job as A.D. is also one who wants Sean fired.

osupride97
03-01-2008, 02:53 PM
I have never, ever seen the fanbase so divided as it is now. And it is close to the lines on whose sides everyone falls on.

It's very sad too, because both coaches, Gundy and Sutton, are alumni and bleed orange like us.

Holder needs to speak up. He's already picked his favorite, but it would still do the university good for him to support Coach Sutton too.

AnniePokely
03-01-2008, 03:07 PM
BS. It's ridiculous to speak in absolutes like this, stating that everyone who thinks Holder has done a good job as A.D. is also one who wants Sean fired.

Agree completely

osujane
03-01-2008, 03:24 PM
Agree completely

I agree also. :pete:

CaliforniaCowboy
03-02-2008, 08:48 AM
BS. It's ridiculous to speak in absolutes like this, stating that everyone who thinks Holder has done a good job as A.D. is also one who wants Sean fired.

It looks like you're reading way more into it than what he actually said...

It is not an absolute, and it does not say EVERYONE about anything...

It says those that like Holder AND who also hate Sean, "say" that he doesn't need to do anything else... which is pretty much what I have observed also.

I am one that that thinks Holder has done a good job, and one that likes Sean, so I would not be included in those statements... except I too think that Holder should climb off the fence at this point and show more support; which is what Sittle said.

I saw no absolutes in the statement except those that like Holder and hate Sean are defending Holder... that seems like a fair statement to me.

What have you seen differently?

AnniePokely
03-02-2008, 10:20 AM
CC, is there anything anyone says that you agree with? Ever?

:D ;)

CaliforniaCowboy
03-02-2008, 12:47 PM
CC, is there anything anyone says that you agree with? Ever?

:D ;)

ahhh.... mamasun, I go only seeking truth and understanding...


(one would think that I would have learned by now that an internet message board is not a place to find either one)

besides, it seems to me that Gman was the one disagreeing with what was said... why no bash for him?

AnniePokely
03-02-2008, 03:02 PM
I'm not bashing you at all. I'm being sarcastic. As usual.


;)

Inky29
03-02-2008, 05:19 PM
Explain to me why he needs to say something more than the things he's already said about the situation? He's already stated that we needed to get behind Sean and support the team the last two years. I find it comical that people think he needs to come out and say anything. When has an AD or an owner coming out in support of a coach ever been anything but bad news for the coach. Holder's handling the situation just fine. He's made two statements when asked during the bad stretches the last two years give Sean public support. He doesn't need to become a cheerleader.

FloridaPoke
03-02-2008, 07:36 PM
Explain to me why he needs to say something more than the things he's already said about the situation? He's already stated that we needed to get behind Sean and support the team the last two years. I find it comical that people think he needs to come out and say anything. When has an AD or an owner coming out in support of a coach ever been anything but bad news for the coach. Holder's handling the situation just fine. He's made two statements when asked during the bad stretches the last two years give Sean public support. He doesn't need to become a cheerleader.

Agree 100%.

All the other crap we hear (rumor or otherwise) is irrelevent. The only thing relevent is what happens this year.....trending into next year in terms of the program heading in the right direction. Holder is no idiot. Making a change of this magnitude has huge implications and can't be made based on short term emotions of vocal fans (in either direction).

My prediction: Sean gets next year.......we have a pretty decent 08/09 year, go to the NCAA, finish in the top 5 in the B12. The recruiting from now to then will determine Sean's fate.

JimBob
03-02-2008, 08:25 PM
The "crap" damned sure is relevant because it is/will be used against us in recruiting. :rolleyes:

FloridaPoke
03-02-2008, 08:59 PM
The "crap" damned sure is relevant because it is/will be used against us in recruiting. :rolleyes:

My original post was "meant to say" that the crap is just that. The rumors that have floated around the internet about off the court stuff is competely rediculous.

Internet boards are great for all of us until grownups start acting like 8th graders......taking one little snippet of BS and mushrooming it into God knows what.

Makes me want to start a whole new web site in the vein of "Snopes of Sports Boards" Should be able to generate several million hits in the first month. Then sell the damned thing based solely on unique viewer hits for advertising purposes. Hell, I could make a bundle just off of programs in transition (even though transition is immenent.)

If you question my credibility, that is ok with me. :)

Now, I have been the first to say in the past that team chemistry and "having fun" in winning are jobs number one. And I have been the first to say that Sean was failing at that late last year and early this year. But anyone that can say that is the case now is both blind and dumb. This team right now reminds me of Class B culture in the movie "Hoosiers".

We may not make the big dance, but this group of men are playing like a family right now....but I wouldn't bet against them in Vegas

JimBob
03-02-2008, 09:18 PM
It's not a question of your credibility; it's all about the damage that "rumor and innuendo" can do to a program. IMHO, that won't go away until the owner tells the AD to speak up.

FloridaPoke
03-02-2008, 10:05 PM
It's not a question of your credibility; it's all about the damage that "rumor and innuendo" can do to a program. IMHO, that won't go away until the owner tells the AD to speak up.

The "rumor and innuendo" is on internet "chat boards" (fueled by water cooler chat based on guess what?...internet chat)......and the reason is clear. The medium allows the weak to hide behind anonymity, while the strong don't need the headache associated with getting "involved."

And I, just like you and everyone else here, are constituent "owners". Regardless of how much TBP donates, it is all worthless without customers.....the "real owners". TBP knows this in spades, as does MH.

If you were CEO, would you make your decisions and related public relations strategy (i.e.,what you say to our very fine Okla press) based on what is said on the internet?

Holder has spoken loud and clear. He will address the situation after the season is over. The right message by the way, considering how things were going earlier in the season. Also the right message with hindsight being 20/20.
Fortunately, Sean and the players have also spoken loud and clear as well with their last 5 games, which makes for a really cool story.

I think we should all be very thankful that we have some highly sophisticated people running things............We are light years away from the recent past where we had ex football players/coaches running very complex multi-million dollar enterpises, with hundreds of variables moving in opposing directions simultaneously, and none of those variables have anything to do with x's and o's.

Signed, one happy customer

snuffy
03-02-2008, 10:19 PM
Just to add to the debate, Dean the Stream said tonight on the Blitz that Holder should, but probably wont endorse Sean Sutton.

PokeNBeans
03-03-2008, 03:29 AM
The "crap" damned sure is relevant because it is/will be used against us in recruiting. :rolleyes:


Just like this "crap" was used until we named Sean the next head coach so that wouldn't be used against us. Looks like that didn't work out so well anyway.

MemphisPoke
03-03-2008, 05:01 AM
Deano said something I should listen too?????? They just want to rile up controversy so they can have more listeners so they can prove to advertisers that they need to advertise on their show and give them dollars.

I have kinda stayed out of this one until now because:

1) Although he has made decisions which are not exactly popular I happen to think Holder is doing a good job.
2) His statement earlier in the season about "getting behind Sean" was good enough for me.

Yes, I realize that Sean is not one of Holders hand picked boys. But, YES, I also believe that Holder is looking for stability within the program and he realizes that, just like Gundy, Sean bleeds orange. It has become quite the fad of late to hire alums for different head coaching jobs around the nation. I just don't believe that Mike Holder really wants to buck that trend.

Additionally, as a businessman/AD he has to worry about the long term debt which is still hanging over GIA. If I remember correctly TBP's money and the other large donations have been tagged for the stadium upgrade, the indoor practice facility and the athletic village. I thought I remembered that the debt over GIA is a stand alone. Think about this and then his statement about getting behind the Basketball team and put your butts in those seats makes a whole lot more sense.

Now with all that said I'll throw one more little caveat into this argument: Mike Holder is extremely popular with certain very high level donors (said with tongue in cheek) but he, just like any appointed public official, must worry about the whole instead of just the cream at the top. I am sure he does not want his email in box, and his desk, filled with letters screaming for his head for firing a popular coach, and especially one who is a "home" boy. Think about that one for a second.

My advice on this whole controversy is to let it die. I have full faith in Sean Sutton to go out and recruit no matter what the situation and to coach as well as any in the Big 12.

JMHO

CaliforniaCowboy
03-03-2008, 07:02 AM
okay, a hypothectical then.... if we make the NCAA, does he announce his support BEFORE our run is done?

That would seem like evidence enough to make a statement... even an NIT birth would seem like enough to announce that he WILL be our coach next season....

He doesn't have to wait until the season is over, as he has already proven with his public support of Gundy BEFORE the season was complete.

AnniePokely
03-03-2008, 08:01 AM
Good grief people. We're on a win streak. Relax and enjoy it. Some of you are going to get high blood pressure.


:rolleyes:

wickerbill
03-03-2008, 08:21 AM
With our team's play over the past few weeks, are people really worried that Sean's job is on the hotseat? Why aren't they writing articles like this about Capel? His team hasn't been doing too well over the past month and they are tied with us in the Big 12.

I think I've seen more coaches lose their job after getting a vote of confidence from their AD than I have seen keep their jobs. I think our team's play has spoken for itself and Holder doesn't need to say anything to appease the chicken littles on internet message boards.

CaliforniaCowboy
03-03-2008, 11:52 AM
With our team's play over the past few weeks, are people really worried that Sean's job is on the hotseat? Why aren't they writing articles like this about Capel? His team hasn't been doing too well over the past month and they are tied with us in the Big 12.



Because Capel didn't inherit a program with such great tradition and high expectations? (not my argument, but it is the one that has been used the most frequently)


Note to self: Check blood pressure.