I wish Gundy

[GoPokes83]

Would have some kind of a "Town Hall" press conference with the fans and explain his thinking. The guy's smart, and he knows more about the team and players than any of us ever will. It'd be cool for the fans to be able to ask questions, and get some insight into what he's up to.

[wood911]

He's going to get to sit down with one fan and explain his thinking, Mike Holder:rollseyes: My guess is there will be some serious discussions about what his performance goals need to be next year and what the benefits of hiring an OC might be.

[BigBadBen]

I am a Gundy supporter. But, I also think he needs to hire an OC so he can focus on HC duties.

I have been thinking about the situation a bit today & something came to me.

This season, the offense is Senior laden. Maybe bringing in an OC with a different mindset would have caused some headaches on the team? What if he just wanted to run the same type of offense this season since these guys have been in the system so long? Maybe running what they know and winning 9 is better than changing it up and only winning 7?

I dont know, just trying to think outside the box a little bit.

With next year technically being a rebuilding season, I think we definately need to go after an OC.

And, you guys may not like this idea, but if Mangino is fired at KU, he would make a good OC here.

[wood911]

What do you think is an acceptable rebuilding year?:confused: I think a winning season is still expected by those who run the athletic department. That, to me, is a 7-5 kind of season.

[BigBadBen]

What do you think is an acceptable rebuilding year?:confused: I think a winning season is still expected by those who run the athletic department. That, to me, is a 7-5 kind of season.

Anything less than 7 wins will be greatly disappointing.

Our depth is getting better but we still have to rebuild, we dont have the luxury yet of just reloading.

[andyokstate]

...used more hair gel?

[OSUFan]

Holder isn't going to say anything to Gundy. He thinks money is why OSU loses to ou and Texas not coaching.

[GoPokes83]

...used more hair gel?

LOL that 'do is looking more and more like the boot cleaning brush that's out by our back door.

[Roman Craig]

I am a Gundy supporter. But, I also think he needs to hire an OC so he can focus on HC duties.

I have been thinking about the situation a bit today & something came to me.

This season, the offense is Senior laden. Maybe bringing in an OC with a different mindset would have caused some headaches on the team? What if he just wanted to run the same type of offense this season since these guys have been in the system so long? Maybe running what they know and winning 9 is better than changing it up and only winning 7?

I dont know, just trying to think outside the box a little bit.

With next year technically being a rebuilding season, I think we definately need to go after an OC.

And, you guys may not like this idea, but if Mangino is fired at KU, he would make a good OC here.


You may be onto something. Maybe next year while rebuilding, he lets Brewer take the reins and learn. Then start up the next run.

[wood911]

Holder isn't going to say anything to Gundy. He thinks money is why OSU loses to ou and Texas not coaching.

Holder understands losing means less money for the athletic department. I am not saying he is going to chew Mike for losing to OU. I am saying he will use the loss as as part of Mike's performance review and may even tie $$ to it if he hasn't already. He is also in a position to strongly recommend an OC.
I remember hearing TBP talking about his expectations and he commented that at his age he expected results "sooner rather than later". Holder is Mike's boss and I would expect an honest discussion about what was accomplished, what are expeactations, how does MG plan on being successful, how can MH help him be successful.

[OSUFan]

Here was my email to Holder:

"Mike,

If Mike Gundy's teams win 8 to 10 games a season and go to a bowl game every year but they never beat Texas; OU nor finish 1st in the Big 12 South, is that good enough for you? When do you say enough is enough or do you ever because there is the “opportunity” for one of his teams to do it the next year? It’s a dilemma you may face someday because it looks like Mike has the “Pat Jones” mentality that he can’t beat the big boys. The Texas game this year was a blowout and the OU game was just plain embarrassing! With a BCS bowl game on the line, OU looked like the team fighting to get the BCS bowl bid not OSU.

I’m not calling for Mike Gundy’s head but I do think Mike would be better off just managing the team as head coach and allow Gunter Brewer or someone else call the offensive plays. Mike has been learning on the job since Day 1 and we as OSU fans have had to endure Mike’s growing pains and suffer the consequences. But Saturday’s loss for me is my “enough is enough.” Mike Gundy’s teams are 0-10 in games against Texas and OU. I am going to have to either give up attending and/or watching OSU/Texas and OSU/OU football games or I’m going to have to have such low expectations for those games that I won’t be disappointed when they turn out to be losses again and again and again.

Thanks for letting me vent!"

Here was his response:

" Thank you for your message and support of the Cowboys. Everyone is frustrated but just remember that a lot of people have lost to the Sooners in Norman since Bob Stoops arrived. Texas is also enjoying the best run of success since the Darrel Royal glory days of the 60s. Our program has made great strides but there is still a lot of work to do. It is difficult to compete when OU spends $80 million/year, Texas spends $129 million/year, and OSU spends $49 million/year. Boone has helped a lot with the facility disparity but we still haven’t been able to close the budget gap.
Our fans need to fill the basketball arena and football stadium for every game. When that happens then it will be realistic to expect more success on the court and the gridiron. This won’t close the revenue gap but it will demonstrate a broad based commitment to winning. Making up for fifty years of neglect in football won’t happen overnight. Keep the faith and continue to show up for the games. That will be your most important contribution.

Mike Holder"

His last response sounded like money was the excuse for losing so I responded.

"Mike,

I understand there is a discrepancy in the three teams’ budgets but it can’t just be money that wins games. Coaching and making the right decisions and giving your team the best chance to win has to be a part of it. Even a dog can have its day.

I doubled my football season tickets this year so my son could bring friends to the games. We also have season basketball tickets. We were at all the football games and we’ll be traveling to whatever bowl game OSU goes to. If we had the money, we would donate more to OSU but when we don’t even get a cost of living raise anymore it is difficult to increase our donations.

And just to be clear, I’m not giving up buying football tickets. I’m just going to have to buffer my expectations so I’m not quite so disappointed when OSU loses."

To which he responded:

"Money is not the only component of the winning equation but it certainly plays a major role. If we want to compete for the best athletes in recruiting we must provide the same opportunities as the competition. If you follow the money trail in Division I athletics you will find that most of the championships reside with those programs with the largest budgets. That is true at OSU with wrestling and golf. Unfortunately, we don’t fund all of our sports at an equivalent level due to budget constraints.
Our golf program is number one because we have the best collegiate golf facility, which allows us to hire the best coaches, recruit the best athletes, and provide those athletes with all of the resources needed to develop their talent. There are no shortcuts to excellence and you don’t shop for championships at the discount department store. Good coaching can overcome some disadvantages but resources will usually win in the long run.
With the ninth ranked budget in the Big 12 OSU leads the conference in NCAA Championships with 49 but 44 of those are in our best funded sports. My goal is to narrow the funding gap with our peers and provide every athlete an opportunity to be the best. We have a long way to go but the journey begins with the first step.
You are definitely helping the situation by doubling your football season tickets. If everyone followed your lead we could start dreaming big dreams with a hope of seeing them come true. Thank you for your support.

Mike Holder"

***********************

I don't understand his statement on providing the same opportunities unless he is just talking about the indoor practice facility. What does ou have right now that OSU doesn't have with the addition of the facilities and BPS? Does OSU have less scholarship money than what ou or Texas has? Sure there are things like bigger video crews and other personnel outside of the "athletic family" but for a recruit -- what opportunities are OSU athletes missing out on?

I bolded his one statement because I think it is ridiculous. I wanted to respond with "Well, about OSU's cross country, tennis and soccer teams? They seem to be fairing pretty well with less than what most programs have." But I let it die. I agree it would be great to have the Athletic Village and a $55-$60 million dollar indoor practice arena but if Gundy can't make the right decisions in the middle of a game OSU is going to continue to lose no matter what kind of facilities OSU has.

[bleedorange]

Regardless of the messages, I admire a program wherein a fan can fire off a couple pretty intense emails direct to the top of the athletic food chain and in short order get a couple well thought out, non-canned responses, directly from the chief. Definitely impressive.

[Roman Craig]

Here was my email to Holder:

"Mike,

If Mike Gundy's teams win 8 to 10 games a season and go to a bowl game every year but they never beat Texas; OU nor finish 1st in the Big 12 South, is that good enough for you? When do you say enough is enough or do you ever because there is the “opportunity” for one of his teams to do it the next year? It’s a dilemma you may face someday because it looks like Mike has the “Pat Jones” mentality that he can’t beat the big boys. The Texas game this year was a blowout and the OU game was just plain embarrassing! With a BCS bowl game on the line, OU looked like the team fighting to get the BCS bowl bid not OSU.

I’m not calling for Mike Gundy’s head but I do think Mike would be better off just managing the team as head coach and allow Gunter Brewer or someone else call the offensive plays. Mike has been learning on the job since Day 1 and we as OSU fans have had to endure Mike’s growing pains and suffer the consequences. But Saturday’s loss for me is my “enough is enough.” Mike Gundy’s teams are 0-10 in games against Texas and OU. I am going to have to either give up attending and/or watching OSU/Texas and OSU/OU football games or I’m going to have to have such low expectations for those games that I won’t be disappointed when they turn out to be losses again and again and again.

Thanks for letting me vent!"

Here was his response:

" Thank you for your message and support of the Cowboys. Everyone is frustrated but just remember that a lot of people have lost to the Sooners in Norman since Bob Stoops arrived. Texas is also enjoying the best run of success since the Darrel Royal glory days of the 60s. Our program has made great strides but there is still a lot of work to do. It is difficult to compete when OU spends $80 million/year, Texas spends $129 million/year, and OSU spends $49 million/year. Boone has helped a lot with the facility disparity but we still haven’t been able to close the budget gap.
Our fans need to fill the basketball arena and football stadium for every game. When that happens then it will be realistic to expect more success on the court and the gridiron. This won’t close the revenue gap but it will demonstrate a broad based commitment to winning. Making up for fifty years of neglect in football won’t happen overnight. Keep the faith and continue to show up for the games. That will be your most important contribution.

Mike Holder"

His last response sounded like money was the excuse for losing so I responded.

"Mike,

I understand there is a discrepancy in the three teams’ budgets but it can’t just be money that wins games. Coaching and making the right decisions and giving your team the best chance to win has to be a part of it. Even a dog can have its day.

I doubled my football season tickets this year so my son could bring friends to the games. We also have season basketball tickets. We were at all the football games and we’ll be traveling to whatever bowl game OSU goes to. If we had the money, we would donate more to OSU but when we don’t even get a cost of living raise anymore it is difficult to increase our donations.

And just to be clear, I’m not giving up buying football tickets. I’m just going to have to buffer my expectations so I’m not quite so disappointed when OSU loses."

To which he responded:

"Money is not the only component of the winning equation but it certainly plays a major role. If we want to compete for the best athletes in recruiting we must provide the same opportunities as the competition. If you follow the money trail in Division I athletics you will find that most of the championships reside with those programs with the largest budgets. That is true at OSU with wrestling and golf. Unfortunately, we don’t fund all of our sports at an equivalent level due to budget constraints.
Our golf program is number one because we have the best collegiate golf facility, which allows us to hire the best coaches, recruit the best athletes, and provide those athletes with all of the resources needed to develop their talent. There are no shortcuts to excellence and you don’t shop for championships at the discount department store. Good coaching can overcome some disadvantages but resources will usually win in the long run.
With the ninth ranked budget in the Big 12 OSU leads the conference in NCAA Championships with 49 but 44 of those are in our best funded sports. My goal is to narrow the funding gap with our peers and provide every athlete an opportunity to be the best. We have a long way to go but the journey begins with the first step.
You are definitely helping the situation by doubling your football season tickets. If everyone followed your lead we could start dreaming big dreams with a hope of seeing them come true. Thank you for your support.

Mike Holder"

***********************

I don't understand his statement on providing the same opportunities unless he is just talking about the indoor practice facility. What does ou have right now that OSU doesn't have with the addition of the facilities and BPS? Does OSU have less scholarship money than what ou or Texas has? Sure there are things like bigger video crews and other personnel outside of the "athletic family" but for a recruit -- what opportunities are OSU athletes missing out on?

I bolded his one statement because I think it is ridiculous. I wanted to respond with "Well, about OSU's cross country, tennis and soccer teams? They seem to be fairing pretty well with less than what most programs have." But I let it die. I agree it would be great to have the Athletic Village and a $55-$60 million dollar indoor practice arena but if Gundy can't make the right decisions in the middle of a game OSU is going to continue to lose no matter what kind of facilities OSU has.


He is saying coaches build teams, money builds programs. A good coach will only provide a johnny come lately, here today gone tomorrow team (Kansas). Money makes it sustainable.

he is thinking long term, you are thinking right now.

[wood911]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? He seems to be saying you have to have the money to win. The more you win, the more money you get. Longtime fans are there, win or lose. To get the other would-be fans you have to win.

Here is some interesting data from last year.
http://forum.kcrag.com/index.php?topic=15653.0

[BigBadBen]

he is thinking long term, you are thinking right now.


Yeah, I agree. A lot of Holders comments made great sense.

He isn't making excuses, just stating fact.

Budget reflects on everything from facilities to recruiting, to paying for better assistants like a top notch OC.

Money doesn't win games, but not limiting what your staff can do financially has advantages.

Granted, we have GREAT FACILITIES, but we do need the IPF in a bad way. We are the only team in the Big 12 without one.


We have gotten a little spoiled over the past couple years with the success. I think expectations should be high, but look back 10-15 years ago.....If someone would have told you that we would have a HC who loves OSU, who isn't the job as a stepping stone, and is consistently winning 8-9 games a year, what would you have said?

Honestly, what would you have said?

I'm not saying that because we were bad for so long, we should expect less. I'm saying, think of where we are compared to where we were. It takes baby steps to build a program that can sustain success.

I would rather have a perennial power rather than a flash in the pan.

Do not accept mediocrity, but have the patience to build an empire.

[Roman Craig]

We have gotten a little spoiled over the past couple years with the success. I think expectations should be high, but look back 10-15 years ago.....If someone would have told you that we would have a HC who loves OSU, who isn't the job as a stepping stone, and is consistently winning 8-9 games a year, what would you have said?

Honestly, what would you have said?

In 2000, I would have said "please, please can we??"

I would rather have a perennial power rather than a flash in the pan.

Do not accept mediocrity, but have the patience to build an empire.this is exactly where I stand!

:pete::pete:

[OSUFan]

So in three years when we are still finishing behind ou, Texas or both of them in the Big 12 South, what will you say? "It takes time to build an empire."

Just how long do we wait? In my opinion, you have to at least beat one of those teams occassionally (the more the better) to build an empire. You can't pour money into a program and not upset one of them and then expect to beat them on a regular basis. I just think this is BS logic and I'm so frickin tired of excuses.

[Roman Craig]

So in three years when we are still finishing behind ou, Texas or both of them in the Big 12 South, what will you say? "It takes time to build an empire."

Just how long do we wait? In my opinion, you have to at least beat one of those teams occassionally (the more the better) to build an empire. You can't pour money into a program and not upset one of them and then expect to beat them on a regular basis. I just think this is BS logic and I'm so frickin tired of excuses.

Agreed. But, lets never forget how OU built their empire. we must never copy that model. We have already tried and failed miserably.

[GoPokes83]

I wonder how much Houston, BYU and Boise St. pay out each year?

[BigBadBen]

Like I said, I do not accept it and I want it to change soon.

But I do have patience.

I hate losing to those two teams. We should be able to beat them at least once every 3 years as is. Losing to UT for 12 years straight, and 7 straight to uo is nauseating.

I think Gundy needs to bring in an aggressive OC so we can quit the passive play calling. Sometimes it looks like we were preparing to punt on 2nd down, and that is sad.

Changing coaching staffs will set us back, and we will be having this same conversation next season.

I will take where we are now over where we were 10 years ago, in a heart beat.
Back then we were losing to those two teams, and only beating Div.I AA directional schools.

It is a matter of perspective.

[BigBadBen]

I wonder how much Houston, BYU and Boise St. pay out each year?


Do we want OSU to drop out of the Big 12 to join the Sun Belt? WAC? Mountain West?


Boise has sustained success in an extremely weak conference. They play good teams occasionally but would not succeed in the Big 12, Pac 10 or SEC.


Houston & BYU are not perennial powers, and they play in weak conferences.

[GoPokes83]

Houston's been good for like 5 years now, haven't they beaten us half the time in the last few years? And hasn't Boise won their conference for like 8 or 9 straight years? BYU has been played in a bowl game for 27 of the last 33 years. My point is I can't imagine they spend what we do, yet they're always competitive. Think we could beat any of them? I'd like to say yes, but I have doubts.

[BigBadBen]

I hear ya, and Im not arguing with you. Im just looking at it from a different perspective.

If we were in a lesser conference we would be winning titles.

If we were in the Big 12 North, we would be in the title game a lot.

[OSUFan]

I'm not suggesting OSU leave the Big 12 and be an independent or move to another conference or even move to the north division. OSU would be the laughing stock of the Big 12 if they made any of those moves and you think sooner fans give us a hard time now? OSU leaving the Big 12 just so they don't have to play the sooners every year? sheesh, we'd never hear the end of it!

I definitely think OSU and Gundy are building the program the correct way but I think they have also reached a critical point in the program. There are no marquee wins for this program. OSU can have all the 8 and 9 game winning seasons they want but to compete with the big boys you have to beat the big boys. You use a victory over ou when competing for a recruit deciding between OSU and ou. You use a victory over a No. 3 Texas team to sway a five-star athlete from Texas.

If Georgia had turned out to be a better team, maybe the Georgia win would have been a marquee win but other than the win at Lincoln when Nebraska was awful or the bowl victory over Alabama (a good football name team) I can't think of anything else that stands out. Gundy needs an upset win and it would be very beneficial if it was one in the Big 12 south.

[CaliforniaCowboy]

Those Boise and BYU comments are a bit misguided in this thread, IMHO, since none of those teams even had an opportunity to go 0-12 against OU and Texas (the point of your comments).

We're in a very good position right now, and we need to keep building, as Holder stated.

The last thing in the world that we need is for fans to lose sight of the goal.

[GoPokes83]

Those comments were just to say you can't buy good teams, which is what I took from Holder's emails as his way of thinking. You think anyone really wants to go play in Boise? They get second and third tier players and coach them to play above their talent level year after year. That's great coaching, not dollars spent.

[wickerbill]

I'm just curious what we would spend that extra money on that is suddenly going to make us a winner if money's what is holding us back.

[JimBob]

I'm just curious what we would spend that extra money on that is suddenly going to make us a winner if money's what is holding us back.

Willie Anderson.

[OSUFan]

I'm just curious what we would spend that extra money on that is suddenly going to make us a winner if money's what is holding us back.

If all the facilities are built, I imagine it goes to scholarships to free up money for administration salaries and hiring a bigger staff. Where OSU has two staff members for video, schools like A&M and Texas have a staff of 20. I don't think it is anything that would affect recruits or player directly but it will help them indirectly and help the staff now be less stressed and stretched. Just my guess.

[OSUFan]

It would also help OSU become debt free and there is a student fee the athletic department needs to give up and allow it to go back to education.

[barryrules]

Let me ask you this.....Would you rather be a football school or a sports school? Is football really the only sport that matters? We aren't a one sport wonder - we excel on every stage.

Sure football is the big name sport, but you can't become the best over night it takes years of building to get there. If we can stay a ranked team that goes to bowl games every year, that will get our name out there, that will get recruits here, that will help us climb the ladder of football success.

We are also consistently getting players in the NFL and that is probably one of the best recruiting tools we can have.

[OSUFan]

To be honest, I don't think OSU will ever become a football school. A football school to me is a school that puts all emphasis on football and football only. OSU has a rich history of other sports being successful and it would be very difficult to give all that up just for football. Also, there's that other school which OSU beats every 6.86 years or longer and the faculty at OSU are not pro-football. Heck, a lot of them are not even pro-sports. Plus, to be a football school, the school has to the respect of the nation and the national media. I just don't ever see that coming about. So I would prefer OSU be a sports school.

But would it be okay if OSU beat ou in football at least once more in my lifetime? ;)

[barryrules]

But would it be okay if OSU beat ou in football at least once more in my lifetime? ;)

I guess that would be okay ;)

[OSUFan]

I guess that would be okay ;)

Thanks! Now if we get Gundy to agree to it. ;)

[GoPokes83]

Thanks! Now if we get Gundy to agree to it. ;)

Maybe if we started a petition.

[totg2000]

I am a Gundy supporter. But, I also think he needs to hire an OC so he can focus on HC duties.

I have been thinking about the situation a bit today & something came to me.

This season, the offense is Senior laden. Maybe bringing in an OC with a different mindset would have caused some headaches on the team? What if he just wanted to run the same type of offense this season since these guys have been in the system so long? Maybe running what they know and winning 9 is better than changing it up and only winning 7?

I dont know, just trying to think outside the box a little bit.

With next year technically being a rebuilding season, I think we definately need to go after an OC.

And, you guys may not like this idea, but if Mangino is fired at KU, he would make a good OC here.

Assuming that he is fired because the allegations are true, why would he be a good OC here?

[BigBadBen]

Assuming that he is fired because the allegations are true, why would he be a good OC here?


Because he seems to be a good OC.

I think if Kansas was going to fire him, they would have by now.
They don't need the allegations to be true to fire him, they need them to be true and fit in the definition of "cause" so they don't have to buy out his contract.

Lew Perkins doesn't seem to like Mangino & from what I have heard, wants him gone so he can bring his boy from UCONN in.